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Home: Non-League Football: Restructuring:
The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper

 

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chienmort
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Nov 6, 2011, 3:37 PM

Posts: 668
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

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The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper Can't Post or Reply Privately

In every culture there are jokes about ethnic minorities.

Irish, Polak, Newfies, its the same joke just change the name.

So a man asks a Newfoundlander how to get from Poole to Chippenham. "If I were going to Chippenham, I wouldn't start from Poole" answered the Newfie.

So the question is if you were going to design a football pyramid, where would you start?


Before you rehash old theories or pet plans, take a while to think what you are trying to achieve.

*What is the purpose of the football pyramid.
*What is/should it be set up to achieve. *
*How can you get there?
*What should be decided before you even put the blank sheet of paper on the desk?



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien


mick
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Nov 6, 2011, 8:00 PM

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Re: [chienmort] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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*What should be decided before you even put the blank sheet of paper on the desk?


Anyone building a physical pyramid starts at the bottom and works up to top.

A paper based pyramid should be constructed in the same way.


chienmort
Reserve Team Regular


Nov 6, 2011, 8:02 PM

Posts: 668
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

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In Reply To
*What should be decided before you even put the blank sheet of paper on the desk?


Anyone building a physical pyramid starts at the bottom and works up to top.

A paper based pyramid should be constructed in the same way.

I agree but I am still trying to define what the Pyramid is for. I will post a definition later though for people to kick about.



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien


cope1
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 6, 2011, 10:14 PM

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Re: [chienmort] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd like to see regional FAs - around 8 or so - made up of county FAs banded together. I wouldn't disband the county FAs, just introduce a regional level above them. Each region would organise its league system as it saw fit. In some areas it might be a vertical pyramid while others might find it more appropriate to have a flatter pyramid.

The key would be the allocation of promotion places which would be determined by a co-efficient score calculated for each region based on results of cup matches between regions and also the performance of promoted teams in the higher divisions.

At what level you start regionalising is a matter of opinion of course. I'd say tier 3 or 4, followed by a further regionalisation the level below that but it's not too important in my opinion. It's basically the system used to decide how many teams qualify for European competitions - the key similarity there being that clubs are not 'pooled' across national borders, and there are clearly certain countries who have stronger teams than others, which is reflected by the number of spots they get.

On top of the that you could have Regional FA Cups which might be more important to clubs than county cups are. You could also offer a berth in the FA Cup 1st round for the winners perhaps.



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

(This post was edited by cope1 on Nov 6, 2011, 10:16 PM)


hucknallite
Reserve Team Sub


Nov 6, 2011, 10:39 PM

Posts: 459
Location: Alfreton
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Re: [cope1] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I wouldn't start with a blank sheet. If we did we'd probably end up with a system similar to that in Rugby League. History is football's greatest strength. Let's remember for all its faults the English football league system is probably the best and most open league system in any sport anywhere in the world. And it got there organically and piecemeal. Although having said that: 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,45,88.......


mick
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Nov 6, 2011, 11:26 PM

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I wouldn't start with a blank sheet. If we did we'd probably end up with a system similar to that in Rugby League. History is football's greatest strength. Let's remember for all its faults the English football league system is probably the best and most open league system in any sport anywhere in the world. And it got there organically and piecemeal.


Can you explain why you believe that to be the case ?


mick
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Nov 6, 2011, 11:30 PM

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In some areas it might be a vertical pyramid ...

Isn't that a wall. Wink

I like the rest of your idea though.


buncranaboy
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 6, 2011, 11:46 PM

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In Reply To
I wouldn't start with a blank sheet. If we did we'd probably end up with a system similar to that in Rugby League. History is football's greatest strength. Let's remember for all its faults the English football league system is probably the best and most open league system in any sport anywhere in the world. And it got there organically and piecemeal.


Can you explain why you believe that to be the case ?



Because any of three teams can win it


hucknallite
Reserve Team Sub


Nov 7, 2011, 6:21 PM

Posts: 459
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Re: [buncranaboy] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To
I wouldn't start with a blank sheet. If we did we'd probably end up with a system similar to that in Rugby League. History is football's greatest strength. Let's remember for all its faults the English football league system is probably the best and most open league system in any sport anywhere in the world. And it got there organically and piecemeal.


Can you explain why you believe that to be the case ?



Because any of three teams can win it


Because teams can move up and down much more easily and freely than in any example I can think of. Cricket: 18 counties only. Rugby League: Effective Franchise system. Rugby Union: Very Limited Promotion/Relegation. Scottish football: 42 teams, closed shop. I know we have leagues within leagues but actually progressing from league to league is more straight forward than most other sports or football in other countries.


buncranaboy
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Nov 7, 2011, 6:40 PM

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. I know we have leagues within leagues but actually progressing from league to league is more straight forward than most other sports or football in other countries.



Apart from USA, which countries were you thinking of ?


blucher blue
Youth Team Regular

Nov 7, 2011, 7:05 PM

Posts: 210
Location: Newton, Hyde
Team(s): Stalybridge Celtic, Oldham A. Charlton

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Re: [hucknallite] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I wouldn't start with a blank sheet. If we did we'd probably end up with a system similar to that in Rugby League. History is football's greatest strength. Let's remember for all its faults the English football league system is probably the best and most open league system in any sport anywhere in the world. And it got there organically and piecemeal. Although having said that: 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,45,88.......


Fibonaci Football!


leohoenig
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Nov 7, 2011, 8:13 PM

Posts: 7564
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

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Re: [buncranaboy] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
. I know we have leagues within leagues but actually progressing from league to league is more straight forward than most other sports or football in other countries.



Apart from USA, which countries were you thinking of ?


Singapore and Australia



Fat AND Pompous.
I was going to list all my grounds for the season, but the moderator said five lines only.
Now blogging at www.leohoenig.com


Andrelux
First Team Sub

Nov 7, 2011, 8:20 PM

Posts: 1052
Location: Luxembourg
Team(s): Brentford (for my sins - obviously done something really bad in a past life

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Re: [cope1] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

....



Andy, surely you wouldn't expect me to cave in quite so quickly.



Cool


buncranaboy
Man City Transfer Target!


Nov 7, 2011, 8:42 PM

Posts: 11632
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In Reply To

In Reply To
. I know we have leagues within leagues but actually progressing from league to league is more straight forward than most other sports or football in other countries.



Apart from USA, which countries were you thinking of ?


Singapore and Australia



Fantastic. Compared to the league systems of Australia, Singapore and USA, the football structure in this country is brilliant. Hurrah !


cope1
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Nov 7, 2011, 10:11 PM

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....



Andy, surely you wouldn't expect me to cave in quite so quickly.



Cool

Don't worry - I didn't any of that tosh you gave me about stepping out of the restructuring debate seriously Cool



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.


Oxford Stone
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Nov 23, 2011, 11:40 AM

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Re: [cope1] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As there have been so many recent instances of leagues running with an odd number of clubs (without it being the end of the world), clubs like Gloucester / Stortford out on a limb, how about a bit of (even-numbered) flexibility on numbers - eg run Conf N with 20 teams and Conf S with 24 for a season? Counterbalance the different number of league fixtures (the 20 will moan about lack of gate revenue, the 24 about fixture congestion) with earlier / later Trophy / Cup entry.


cope1
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Nov 26, 2011, 5:18 PM

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Re: [Oxford Stone] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I reckon 20-24 might cause arguments in terms of gate receipts but I certainly think it would help to be flexible.

I know it won't ever happen because we like our home/away scheduling over here but I think US style scheduling could help.

My suggestion is to have 2 divisions of 24 at step 2, with teams everyone in their division once. They would also be split in to 'pools' of north/mids/south with 8 from each division forming the midlands division. Teams then play the rest of their division once.

This gives a total of 38 league games each with teams playing mostly in their own part of the country. A 'north' team, for example, would play 30 games against the teams in the northern 3rd, and 8 (4 away) against 'midlands' teams. The 'midlands' teams would play 22 games against other 'midlands' teams with a further 16 (8 away) against teams in the 'north' or 'south'.



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.


Mister TwoU
First Team Sub


Nov 26, 2011, 5:48 PM

Posts: 1166
Location: Bo'ness
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I reckon 20-24 might cause arguments in terms of gate receipts but I certainly think it would help to be flexible.

I know it won't ever happen because we like our home/away scheduling over here but I think US style scheduling could help.

My suggestion is to have 2 divisions of 24 at step 2, with teams everyone in their division once. They would also be split in to 'pools' of north/mids/south with 8 from each division forming the midlands division. Teams then play the rest of their division once.

This gives a total of 38 league games each with teams playing mostly in their own part of the country. A 'north' team, for example, would play 30 games against the teams in the northern 3rd, and 8 (4 away) against 'midlands' teams. The 'midlands' teams would play 22 games against other 'midlands' teams with a further 16 (8 away) against teams in the 'north' or 'south'.


That sounds heluva like those old split divisions, but aranged without proper home and away pairs.



Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.


cope1
Chelsea Transfer Target


Nov 26, 2011, 11:56 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Which old split divisions? What pairs?

You'd play 19 home and 19 away - that's the important thing isn't it?



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.


Mister TwoU
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Nov 27, 2011, 7:39 AM

Posts: 1166
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Which old split divisions? What pairs?

You'd play 19 home and 19 away - that's the important thing isn't it?


I think you will find that youre idea only gives 19/19 to some teams were others have too put up with 18/20 or 20/18. Try it out.

Afaik split divisions start with two conferences of may be 14 teams divided geographically who play home/away (26 games).

Then teams then get re pooled into 2 diffrent conferences usually the 2 top-7s together + the 2 bottom-7s like wise and these then continue playing home/away but only against teams not previously met (14 more games).

The division of conference pairs could be shown as one table of 28 teams or as 4 separate conferences over the season and the mid season split does not have to be top/bottom. For instance it could be split odd/odd & even/even in position rank order from first half final conferences or od/even & even/odd or maybe just aranged alphabeticaly.

How ever its done it actually garrantees equal numer of home/away games.



Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.


cope1
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Nov 27, 2011, 11:50 AM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think you misunderstand my suggestion - teams would all get 19 home games and 19 away. There is no split at any point in the season, the pools/divisions are there to create the fixtures, but they can be played in any order - similar to the NPL Divisions 1 in their first season.

Initially you create 23 fixtures per team - one against each other team in the division (North or South). 12 of the teams in each division will play 12 home and 11 away while the other 12 will play 11 home and 12 away. In each division 8 of the teams playing 12/11 will be in the extremity (i.e. not the midlands) while 4 will be in the midlands pool.

In the second phase of fixture creation - using the pools - 8 teams in each pool will have played 12/11 and 8 will have played 11/12. As there are 15 more fixtures to be created per team, you give those who already have a 12/11 split a 7/8 split, and vice versa. This comes to 19/19 over the season.



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

(This post was edited by cope1 on Nov 27, 2011, 11:51 AM)


Mister TwoU
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Nov 27, 2011, 1:09 PM

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I think you misunderstand my suggestion - teams would all get 19 home games and 19 away. There is no split at any point in the season, the pools/divisions are there to create the fixtures, but they can be played in any order - similar to the NPL Divisions 1 in their first season.

Initially you create 23 fixtures per team - one against each other team in the division (North or South). 12 of the teams in each division will play 12 home and 11 away while the other 12 will play 11 home and 12 away. In each division 8 of the teams playing 12/11 will be in the extremity (i.e. not the midlands) while 4 will be in the midlands pool.

In the second phase of fixture creation - using the pools - 8 teams in each pool will have played 12/11 and 8 will have played 11/12. As there are 15 more fixtures to be created per team, you give those who already have a 12/11 split a 7/8 split, and vice versa. This comes to 19/19 over the season.


I DO realise what you meant but what im saying is that i beleive its not possible to give every one same number of homes & aways using that system without having to double-play and/or not-play various sheduled oponents. May be wrong but am fairly certain this was a fact discovered & established when the Natal league (S.A.) tried method out in there 1985 season.
Whitch was why i sugested the trying out on paper. Good luck making it work. Wink



Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.


cope1
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Nov 27, 2011, 3:59 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I promise you it works. I've cone it in a spreadsheet and it works just fine.



If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.


Mister TwoU
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Nov 27, 2011, 8:52 PM

Posts: 1166
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I promise you it works. I've cone it in a spreadsheet and it works just fine.


Would be fascinated too see this fixture pattern, any chance of a dekko?



Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.


wishmaster3211
First Team Regular


Jan 22, 2012, 10:55 AM

Posts: 1359
Location: A small town in north Wiltshire.
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Re: [chienmort] The Pyramid and the Proverbial Blank Sheet Of Paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Regional up to Div 3 (League 2 or whatever they choose to call it)

Two conferences (smaller)

4 regional comps below that

etc.

It needs to be wider/less steep and it neds a Midlands Leg high up. Petrol costs and travelling will only become more of an issue with time. I believe the current system is designed top down not bottom up and has too much historical bias in it.



"You can't score runs in the Pavilion, you've got to stay in and grind them down"

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