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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper

 

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cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 19, 2011, 7:06 PM

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Post #26 of 37 (2016 views)
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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I see what you mean, but I think I'd leave to the club to worry about whether it will hurt their supporter-base or not. I am not fan of Sunday League names (do any of them seriously think putting the word 'Real' in front of the name of a curry house is remotely original these days?). Works names are fine by me, anything which looks like it's not just been pulled out of a hat.


KnowYourMarket
Man City Transfer Target!


Apr 20, 2011, 9:24 AM

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Post #27 of 37 (1966 views)
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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Don't forget all clubs to issue.



Last ground visited(update requested by Spud): Wellington . New grounds 18/19: 38


rainjar
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Apr 21, 2011, 9:23 AM

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Post #28 of 37 (1890 views)
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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Interesting to see the majority of the responses propose only 3 nationwide levels, and regional leagues starting at the fourth level (with North and South). Also, fewer clubs at each of the first 3 levels, so you end up with as few as 62 clubs playing in nationwide legues, as compared with the current 116 - almost half!

The cost of travel at a time of financial restraint must be a big factor.

Regional leagues at the fourth level would bring England in line with Germany. Smile

My own view might have been similar, except that with the top 6 to 8 playing in a European league, and the next 12 to 24 playing in a British or Northern European League (call it what you may, Atlantic or North Atlantic League even), you'd only have two England-wide levels. Still brings us to 60 to 72 clubs playing above the regional leagues.



Football Insights


(This post was edited by rainjar on Apr 21, 2011, 9:42 AM)


Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!

Apr 22, 2011, 6:58 AM

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Post #29 of 37 (1820 views)
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Re: [rainjar] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd go as far as having just two nationwide leagues, is there really any justification in northern based clubs going all the way down to Exeter or Torquay?

Does anyone recall how well the old Division Three north and south did or didn't work? It was a bit before my time.


panther
Junior Team Star

Apr 24, 2011, 11:35 AM

Posts: 95
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Post #30 of 37 (1734 views)
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Re: [Isaac] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Good to read different variants on the subject, with so many clubs going to the wall or falling on hard times, dont see the situation getting any better in the near future (rise in petrol/unemployment/lower attendances etc)
To curtail this a solution, not to everyones idea but who's are

Premier 1 18 clubs 2 down
Premier 2 20 clubs 2 up 4 down

2 Premier Leagues will happen soon, doubtful top clubs would agree on 18 team Top tier Man U lose 1 million per home game

Championship North/South 22 Teams 2 up from each 4 down from each. More local games bigger attendances in theory.

4 Regional Divisions North/ Midlands/ South East / South west. Could also be NW & NE 22 teams 2 up 4 down from each
This would take up current Conf, North and South and a few extra, no would be travelling those extra miles

8 Divisions splitting the Regional Divisions in two. 2 up from each
Relegation to County FA Leagues through Election/ Ground grading

Would bring the so called outposts like the North East, South West and Anglia more into a fairer system. The more they progress the more they travel.

Just an Idea


aicwhu
First Team Sub

Apr 26, 2011, 7:47 AM

Posts: 990
Location: pershore
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Post #31 of 37 (1657 views)
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Re: [panther] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

yes your suggestion is my preferred solution

it is simple and achieves the object of significant regionalisation at a much higher level than currently
which would benefit non-league immensely

as for the old div 3n and 3s they actually did not work very well
because a) there was only one promotion place each to the old second division and b) it was effectively a closed shop for ambitious non-league clubs

this had the effect of making the leagues stagnate
with lots of dead wood unable to find their natural level and little promotion excitement for most clubs for most of the season

andrew conway


Jon M
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May 3, 2011, 12:59 PM

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Post #32 of 37 (1527 views)
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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Back from a long absence, more to do with changes in Job & location (including an ill-fated attempt to emigrate to Australia) than Oxford’s return to Division IV, but here I am now, once again drawn in by this eternal debate over restructure where I feel compelled to reprieve my masterplan first conceived a year or two back.

For me the aim has to be something that I would imagine would be common to most, if not all clubs, in the pyramid: i) to have a definitive picture of what is required to move up and down the levels and where within the structure promotion or relegation (and achieving neither) would place you and ii) being able to play all local rivals at your own level rather than having one or more forced to switch divisions sideways and/or travel long distances “…just to make up the numbers…”.

To do this would require relinquishing one or two perceived ‘givens’ in most structures, namely: i) the same number of clubs in any one league year on year; ii) a consistent number of clubs per league across a level; iii) equal number of feeder leagues across strands.

The idea is that the pyramid is based around fixed geographic regions, using a slight variation on the current Step 5 setup as the building blocks. The trick to making this work will be: i) having one or three feeders rather than two, if that suits the overall geography and ii) having a variable number of clubs per league season on season to allow for the location of those clubs which move up/down.

This will keep the clarity of knowing which division is above and below you personally and exactly what is required to move up/down; while keeping the regional shape intact.

To explain the regions, the 14 Step 5 leagues would stay as they are except that Essex would extend across North London; the SSM would shift north; and the UC would move further north to in effect cover the East Midlands.
The split would then be as follows:
- Prem/Champ/League 1 stay as national divisions
- League 2/Conf split N/S along the natural county border from the M50/M5 junction in the west across and then up to the Wash.
- L2North would then split N/S a little south of the M62 (maybe Chester-Lincoln)
- L2South would split E/W (roughly A10/A1(M)/M3)
These four leagues would then split into seven, with the 14 Step5s as feeders as shown:
- Northern North –NNW) North West Counties; NNE) Northern L & a reduced NCE
- Northern South – a single division made up from MFA & UCL ~(aka E Mids)
- Southern East – SEN) East Counties & Essex; SES) Kent & Sussex
- Southern West – SWC) Spartan & Comb Counties; SWW) Hellenic, Western & Wessex

Putting the initial N/S split at this point gets the numbers roughly right to keep the Step 5s pretty much as they are clubwise; Each pairing of leagues will be allowed to fluctuate in numbers between them up to a set max/min (eg 26/18) at which point adjustments are made from the level below; Demotions/Folds etc are dealt with within the relevant strand.


chienmort
First Team Sub


May 3, 2011, 1:56 PM

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Location: Poole
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Post #33 of 37 (1511 views)
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Re: [Jon M] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

How does promotion work where there are three step 5 feeders in one strand and only one in another?



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien


Jon M
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May 3, 2011, 4:06 PM

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Post #34 of 37 (1487 views)
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Re: [chienmort] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The level at which the only three feeder case occurs is at the base 'Step 5' level where only Champions are promoted (as at present). The only difference would be that three teams were relegated instead of two, as in most other cases at that level.
The only single feeder case at that level (north west) would see only one side relegated (unless there was a strong support for two up/two down in that area only).

The other way round it would be bolstering the NWC upper level so that it could support two sister divisions (most likely north/south), which would be a possible longer term aim.

Higher up the ladder, all promotions would be champion and playoff winner from each feeder replacing the bottom four in each upper division (pretty much as it is now), with the one exception in the midlands, which would just be champion, runner-up and play-off winner replacing bottom three.

BTW - if two sister leagues got significantly out of balance, then at a set point relegation would be altered to 3 down from one and 5 down from the other to help redress the situation. This would be advised from before the season started (as would all prom/rel numbers).


oftenscore6
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 26, 2011, 4:39 PM

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Post #35 of 37 (1349 views)
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Re: [Jon M] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was discussing the promotion / relegation process with locals in Austria last weekend. Austria goes 1-1-3-9. From 2nd to 3rd it's 1 down plus the 2nd last into a playoff with 1 of the winners from the 3rd. So either 1 or 2 will go down from the 2nd. League boundaries are fixed, and so it can end up with either more down than up into a division. However, to keep sensible numbers, that means they relegate an extra club. Actually as it turns out, the 2nd bottom team are a Vienna side and therefore from the same region as the playoff team they face. But the bottom placed 2nd division side are from the Mitte region, so Regionalliga West will not get a side relegated into it. Should the West winners win their playoff v Mitte winners, that will mean a reprieval for a West 'relegated' team and an extra relegation team in the Mitte region. In this way, region sizes remain the same, as do divisions, and clubs accept that they may get relegated even when not in a standard relegation position. For promotion, it always happens where appropriately qualified.

The difficult bit to accept here I think would be the extra relegation, but that's necessary to make it work, and accepted there as a means of guaranteeing the travel limits at each level. It's certainly not necessary for it to 1-2-4-8-16 etc. to achieve this - as I say it's 1-3-9 there. So with a blank sheet of paper and these principles, I think some very different options are possible. I will think further but it's food for thought for others perhaps...



-----------------------------------------------
Last new football ground (956) Wellington 0-2 Exmouth Town
With FC United: 134
On the agenda:
15/10 FC United v Basford United
16/10 Ashland Rovers v Underwood Villa
19/10 Atherton Collieries v FC United


Andrelux
First Team Regular

May 26, 2011, 10:05 PM

Posts: 1213
Location: Luxembourg
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Post #36 of 37 (1286 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've had to re-read the post a couple of times, but I think I now understand Smile.

Essentially, it's a question of geographical ring-fencing, and where you choose to introduce it. In Austria, it's at the third division with 3 leagues, in France ( a country of comparable size to England) it's division 6 with 22 "ligues". (the sequence is
1-1-1-4-8-22). I believe similar things happen elsewhere too.

So the issue is upstream, from the first regional ring-fenced division downwards, with the number of relegations from the division determined by the number of teams relegated into the division (does that make sense?).

To give a simple example, where no teams fold and everyone would like to move up, geographically ring-fenced region A promotes one team from its top division. If there are 2 teams relegated from above, then potentially it may gain 2, 1 or 0 relegated clubs next year. Two clubs are also to be promoted from division 2, region A. Therefore, there are three options, if you keep the same league size:

-1 (promoted) +2 (relegated from above) +2 (promoted from below) = 3 relegated
-1 (promoted) +1 (relegated from above) +2 (promoted from below) = 2 relegated
-1 (promoted) +0 (none relegated from above) +2 (promoted from below) = 1 relegated

And in the event that Region A division 2 was also ringfenced with two leagues in each, it could (and does) make the situation even more confused for upstream clubs in division 3.


So essentially the teams that finish 3rd or 2nd from bottom could have their status the next season determined entirely by the performances of clubs in other divisions.

Just to illustrate the point, finishing third from bottom in the Isthmian (north) wouldn't necessarily mean that you're safe: that could depend on the results of championships and play-offs downstream from you, matches over which your club has and cannot have had any influence whatsoever (since they occur in a completely different division and at a completely different level entirely).

Bit of a paradigm shift required on the mindset front, I believe. Personally, I think it's a shift worth making. But I can see why some might object.

But as the above example illustrates, when we're talking about geographical ring-fencing, it's a consequence that needs to be taken into account.


(This post was edited by Andrelux on May 26, 2011, 10:10 PM)


cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

May 27, 2011, 2:19 PM

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Post #37 of 37 (1243 views)
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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The 2 options when ring-fencing geographically are to alter the number of promotion/relegation spots as and when the effects of downstream changes are known or to allow divisions to change size by 1/2 teams per season and arrange promotion/relegation for the following season to take this into account. Alternatively, you simply announce 3-down each season and offer a reprieve where necessary. It's still a change because of other events but you know you need to finish outside the bottom 3 to be totally safe.

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