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Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper

 

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Andrelux
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Apr 17, 2011, 11:43 PM

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Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper Can't Post or Reply Privately

... and you were the new supremo, with unbounded powers. No previous league organisation (up to and including the Premier league) has anything to do with it. It's a blank piece of paper. What would you do? You can start with anything, move teams anywhere, organise steps as you wish, you can include reserve teams or not, you can have regions starting wherever you want, you can have ten team divisions playing each other 4 times... hell, 6 times, or 26 team divisions if you want. You have absolute power, in other words...


cope1
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Apr 18, 2011, 12:44 AM

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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd have a 1-1-1-2-4-8... structure with the top 3 tiers being Football League Divisions 1, 2 and 3. These have 18, 22, 22 teams respectively. They enter the FL Cup and the FA Cup.

Below that (levels 4-5) I'd have Northern League and a Southern League. These would each have 22 clubs and would be fed by regional 2nd divisions (Northern and Midlands in the NL and Eastern and Western in the SL). The 2nd divisions would have 20-22 clubs each. These would all play in their respective League Cups (NL or SL) plus FA Cup.

Below these (level 6) I'd have 8 regional FAs organising things. They'd each be headed by a Regional League: North-Eastern, North-Western, West Midlands and East Midlands feeding the Northern League; Eastern, South-Eastern, Western and South Midlands feeding the Southern League. These would each have 18-20 clubs who would play in regional FA Cups and the FA Cup. Regional FA Cup winners (8) would contest the FA Vase/Trophy or something, the following season.

Below these (level 7) I'd allow the regional FAs to organise their own structure. Each region should cover about 5 county FAs. These would provide members to the Regional FA board who would decide whether to have a 2nd tier in the regional league or just to go straight to county football. Leagues sizes also determined by regional FAs but expected to be around the 16-18 mark. These teams would also enter the Regional FA Cups and, if entered, the FA Cup.

NB. Clubs always 'belong' to their own region so number may change year on year slightly to accommodate more teams relegating into one region than another.

The cups would be as follows:
FA Cup - open competition, assuming similar number of entries as at present. FL teams all enter in last 128 along with 66 'non-league' sides.
FA Vase/Trophy thing - open to Regional FA Cup winners
Regional FA Cups - open to all teams within each region from level 6 down
County FA Cups - open to all teams from level 7 down

That's all I can muster before I fall asleep :)


buncranaboy
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Apr 18, 2011, 1:51 PM

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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It ain't gonna happen but I'd begin by discarding many of the current nomenclatures and some of the current self-serving football leagues within the pyramid. Blank sheet then -

Premier League 20 clubs
FL 1 24 Clubs
FL 2 24 Clubs
F3 3 N/S 2 divisions of 24 Clubs - champion and play-off winner up; 4 down from each
Step 1 - 4 divisions of 20 Clubs; champion and play-off winner up; three down plus 4th bottom into play-off
Step 2 - 12 divisions of 20 clubs; champion up; 12 runners-up and 4 from above to provide 4 step 1 places; three down plus 4th bottom into play-off
Step 3 - 36 divisions of 20 clubs; champion up; 36 runners-up and 12 from above to provide 12 step 2 places

Step 4 - each of those 36 divisions fed by as many as necessary locally, again in a cluster-formation rather than linear.

In this structure 1,168 clubs are catered for down to Step 3. The current pyramid caters for 962 clubs down to Step 6. There are 15 leagues at Step 6 currently; under "my pyramid" there are 36 leagues at the equivalent level so much more local football all round. And forget about the current league "titles" - this is a blank page exercise so purely theoretical.


PaulC
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Apr 18, 2011, 5:46 PM

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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Division 1 - 20 teams, 3 down

Division 2 - 22 teams, 3 up, 3 down

Division 3
- 22 teams, 3 up, 4 down

Divisions 4N 4S
- 2X22 teams, 4 up, 8 down

Divisions 5N, 5M, 5SE, 5SW
4x20 teams 8 up, 16 down

"Division 6" 16 groups based on NL, NCE N, NCE S, NWC N, NWC S, MidAll, UCL, ECL N, ECL S (merging ECL and ESX), SE (E), SE (W) (making 2 divisions from KL SSX and CCL), WSX, WL N, WL S (Combing WL+SWL), HL, SSML. 16 x20 teams 16 up, 32 down Leagues would retain their names rather than be known as Divison 6

No automatic promotion from Div 6.
Play-off 1. National draw: 8 champions v 8 champions. 8 winning champions promoted. 8 runners up v 8 runners up. 8 losing runners up eliminated
Play-off 2. National draw 8 losing champions v 8 winning runners up. 8 winners promoted

"Division 7" Same 16 groups as in Division 7 16 x20 teams 32 up, 32 down.

("Division 8") "County or sub county" leagues 32 up


In this set up there would be approx 800 teams in the top 7 divisions.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Apr 18, 2011, 5:51 PM)


Steelback
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Apr 18, 2011, 5:50 PM

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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Have Welsh clubs playing in Wales, English Clubs in England etc etc & also insist that a team name must include an actual place name rather than The New Saints, Romulus, Vauxhall Motors etc to at least step 6 down.

Oh & ban groundshares in the FA Cup, Trophy & Vase unless the ground is jointly owned by all teams using it



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jimmyjazz
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Apr 18, 2011, 7:11 PM

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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Throw all 1,000 or so clubs at step 6 into a hat and draw them out once a week over a 30 weekend game schedule. Whoever has the most points at the end wins and the bottom team joins the Welsh system and is replaced by the step 7 side with the most PPG.


blucher blue
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Apr 18, 2011, 7:42 PM

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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Since Vauxhall Motors have nothing to do with any town (they're a works team, FFS!) leave them alone!


Mister TwoU
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Apr 18, 2011, 8:33 PM

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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Based on principals i mentioned over on the whitley bay thread.

Premier League

Division One: 18 teams; 3 relegations

Division Two: 18 teams; 2 direct promotions (corrected tx cope1) + 1 play-off promotion; 2 relegations

Football League Conference

Division One: 22 teams; 2 elections (from top-6); 4 relegations

Division Two: 22 teams; 3 direct promotions + 1 play-off promotion; 4 relegations

2x Division Threes: 22 teams each ; 1 direct promotion + 1 play-off promotion per division; 4 relegations

Regional Premier Leagues

4x Premier Divisions: 20 teams each; 1 election per division (from top-4s); 4 relegations per division

8x Division Ones: 20 teams each; 1 direct promotion + 1 play-off promotion per division; 4 relegations per division

Area Leagues (where current step5 is)

32x Division Ones: 18 teams each; 1 election per division (from top-4s);

Arrangments beneath Area League division ones subject to local geography, population, etc. concerns i.r.o. numbers and sizes of there lower divisions. May be some county leagues act as direct feeders?



Professional cretin.

(This post was edited by Mister TwoU on Apr 18, 2011, 8:48 PM)


cope1
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Apr 18, 2011, 8:36 PM

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Post #9 of 37 (3101 views)
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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What do you have against clubs without a location in their name?


cope1
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Apr 18, 2011, 8:39 PM

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Re: [Mister TwoU] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Why do you want elections from level 3 to 2? I see it much lower down like from the current step 5 to 4, but I don't see the need that high up.

ps. your system appears to perpetually reduce the top level by 1 club each year which is an interesting twist, but maybe not intended (3 down, 1+1 promoted).


Mister TwoU
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Apr 18, 2011, 9:00 PM

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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Why do you want elections from level 3 to 2? I see it much lower down like from the current step 5 to 4, but I don't see the need that high up.

ps. your system appears to perpetually reduce the top level by 1 club each year which is an interesting twist, but maybe not intended (3 down, 1+1 promoted).


The evolution in PL to 2 divs. i think is going too be on the agendre be fore long and reckon it will be needed to be taken on bored in any new scenareo we propose.

I sugest election from step3 to step 2 to take into account UEFA checks and balances, so particpaters in the PL have to meet strict criterias 'in league' in anticepation of those.



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buncranaboy
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Apr 18, 2011, 10:07 PM

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Post #12 of 37 (3064 views)
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Re: [Mister TwoU] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Based on principals i mentioned over on the whitley bay thread.

Premier League

Division One: 18 teams; 3 relegations

Division Two: 18 teams; 2 direct promotions (corrected tx cope1) + 1 play-off promotion; 2 relegations

Football League Conference

Division One: 22 teams; 2 elections (from top-6); 4 relegations

Division Two: 22 teams; 3 direct promotions + 1 play-off promotion; 4 relegations

2x Division Threes: 22 teams each ; 1 direct promotion + 1 play-off promotion per division; 4 relegations

Regional Premier Leagues

4x Premier Divisions: 20 teams each; 1 election per division (from top-4s); 4 relegations per division

8x Division Ones: 20 teams each; 1 direct promotion + 1 play-off promotion per division; 4 relegations per division

Area Leagues (where current step5 is)

32x Division Ones: 18 teams each; 1 election per division (from top-4s);

Arrangments beneath Area League division ones subject to local geography, population, etc. concerns i.r.o. numbers and sizes of there lower divisions. May be some county leagues act as direct feeders?



The flaw in this example is that you still have teams at the seventh level having to travel a quarter of the country - at least, when you take away the congested south-east element.


cope1
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Apr 18, 2011, 10:10 PM

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Post #13 of 37 (3060 views)
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Re: [buncranaboy] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think they travel a quarter of the country at level 6 actually. It's split into 8 regions for level 7.


buncranaboy
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Apr 18, 2011, 10:25 PM

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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry - I misread PL as being separate from League 1 and 2 Blush

Still too much for level 6 clubs, especially in outlying areas - same problems as now!


roy142857
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Apr 18, 2011, 11:33 PM

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Re: [Andrelux] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It's a blank piece of paper


With this, can't resist the temptation to suggest something pretty radical, so here goes ... not going to worry about league names or anything, but definitely want more emphasis on local matches ... so

Top national level of 32 teams, broken into 4 regional divisions of 8 teams. Play home and away within regional division (14 matches), play all other teams once (24 matches, so total of 38 matches). End of season playoffs to decide champion, 2nd place teams visit divisional champion not from their division, then semi-finals and final on neutral grounds. Bottom teams in each regional division relegated, one from bottom teams to play off against second place teams from the same region from the level below.

Second national level of 40 teams, broken into 4 regional divisions of 10 teams. Play home and away in regional division (18 games), play all teams from one other division once (10 games), play half the teams from each of the other two regional divisions once (10 games, total 38 games). Top teams promoted to next level, play semi-finals and final against each other to determine 'champion' for their level, second place teams play in the play-offs mentioned above. Similarly, bottom teams in each regional division relegated, one from bottom teams to play off against second place teams from the same region from the level below.

Third national level of 48 teams, broken into 4 regional divisions of 12 teams. Play home and away in regional division (22 games), play half of the teams in each of the other three regional divisions once (18 games, so 40 games total). Note that by this level teams are only playing 9 away games outside their own region. Top teams promoted to next level, play semi-finals and final against each other to determine 'champion' for their level, second place teams play in the play-offs mentioned above. Bottom two teams in each regional division relegated.

Top 'Regional Leagues' level of 88 teams, broken into four leagues of 22 teams playing each other home and away (42 games). Top teams in each league promoted automatically, and play semi-finals and final against each other to determine 'champion' for their level. Second to fifth place teams in each league play off against each other for remaining promotion spot. (I can see arguments for second place teams having automatic promotion, but I think having less meaningless matches towards the end of the season takes it in favour of this admittedly less fair method). Four teams relegated from each regional league.

Second 'Regional Leagues' level of 160 teams, broken into 8 leagues of 20 teams playing each other home and away (38 games). Automatic promotion for the top team in each league, second to fifth place teams in each league play off against each other for remaining promotion spot. Four teams relegated from each regional league.

Third 'Regional Leagues' level of 288 teams, broken into 16 leagues of 18 teams playing each other home and away (34 games). Automatic promotion for the top team in each league, second to fifth place teams in each league play off against each other for remaining promotion spot.

Below this level 'Local Leagues', with arrangements including promotion and relegation varying according to local needs (for instance, one Third Regional Level league might have only one local league below it, whilst another has two or three - I think at this level it depends on what makes sense locally.


cope1
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Apr 18, 2011, 11:43 PM

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Re: [roy142857] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I like this one. I quite like the fact that teams still play in national divisions but with an increasing emphasis on local games.


multilevel
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Apr 19, 2011, 9:33 AM

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Re: [roy142857] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I dislike the way in which some teams only play each other once - although it can be arranged so that each team plays half of these games at home and half away, it adds in an element of luck which has nothing to do with the game.


Isaac
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Apr 19, 2011, 9:38 AM

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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd standardise all leagues with a maximum of 20 clubs which is surely enough?

A 1-1-2-4-4-18 set up with 3up/down, champions only automatically promoted from steps 2 to 5 with 2nd to 7th place clubs entering the play offs with the higher placed clubs getting an advantage with the following set up:

A 2 v 3 winner promoted

B 4 v 7

C 5 v 6

In the second stage the loser from game A and the 3rd bottom team from the league above would go into a semi final draw with the winners of games B and C with a two legged final. Obviously there would have to be a slightly different format at steps 3 and 4 where two leagues feed into one. Promotion from step 6 to 5 would be by the play off system used in Spain.

The Champions League would be for champions only (as well as the holders) with the FA Cup and League Cup winners and the 2nd and 3rd placed teams in the Prem going into the Europa League.

In the FA Cup there would be no replays with extra time and penalty shoot outs in the first game but steps 1-4 clubs would enter at the 128 club stage 48 qualifiers.

The FA Trophy would be for steps 4 and 5 clubs only (160 in total) with step 6 clubs (360 in total) going into the FA Vase, for clubs below that there would be something similar to the Scottish Amateur Cup which starts with 700 odd clubs, obviously the early stages at least would be regionalised. As for the various League/County cups, well the ones that few people are interested would have to go.

A far more common sense approach to ground grading with only a minimal number of seats required in lower leagues for those who might have difficulty standing.


(This post was edited by Isaac on Apr 19, 2011, 10:27 AM)


leeroy
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Apr 19, 2011, 9:39 AM

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Post #19 of 37 (2940 views)
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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Top two tiers

Premier League as now
20 clubs
38 matches

Football League Championship
36 clubs
3 regions of 12 clubs
home and away within region - 22 matches
home to half of each other region - 12 matches
away to half of each other region - 12 matches
total - 46 matches (same as now)

either combine all 36 in to one table, with promotion system used currently or
top of each region promoted - 3 clubs
4th promotion/retention place - 4th bottom in Premier League v 3rd best regional runner-up home and away - best regional runner-up v 2nd best regional runner-up home and away - winners meet in final at Wembley - winners promoted/retain Premier League place


Mister TwoU
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Apr 19, 2011, 9:47 AM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Sorry - I misread PL as being separate from League 1 and 2 Blush

Still too much for level 6 clubs, especially in outlying areas - same problems as now!


Even though my level 6 is equall to present Conference N/S?

I did not see need too more than double number of leagues there tbh even though I suppose that level is a bit like a step2/3 highbrid of todays teams.
like wise my level 7 is kind of a highbrid of our step 3/4s.

I was quite careful to not go to far over doubleing team/league numbers at each level, all though youll have seen that ive actualy cut out two levels completly.



Professional cretin.


Isaac
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Apr 19, 2011, 10:53 AM

Posts: 9629
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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Have Welsh clubs playing in Wales, English Clubs in England etc etc & also insist that a team name must include an actual place name rather than The New Saints, Romulus, Vauxhall Motors etc to at least step 6 down.




I'd agree in principal but then how far do you take it, would Chelsea have to be renamed Fulham and Fulham become Putney FC?


cope1
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Apr 19, 2011, 1:17 PM

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Re: [Isaac] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Why do clubs have to have a location in their name in the first place? Is it really that important?


Andrelux
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Apr 19, 2011, 4:00 PM

Posts: 1213
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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Since I started this thread, I suppose I should contribute to it!

Everyone (on this thread and elsewhere) seems to feel that a larger number of divisions per step at some stage is the way forward.

However, of all the suggestions, I like the one from Roy14etc (never was all that good at remembering numbers) best. Not only is it radically different, but it also seems to hang together, and addresses quite a few issues. Presents a few new ones too, but on balance I still like it. I'd argue whether standards are high enough across the board to have a 32-team top league (I'd go for 24), but the general format is beguiling. So if it was down to my vote (FPTP or AV? yet to be decided...), I'd go for it as (a) most different, (b) best but especially (c) least likely ever to be realised. But then (c) was never the objective. On the contrary. That's why it was a blank sheet of paper.

All the rest of us (myself included) have been worried about, at best, toying around with what you can do beyond level three. This is the only one so far which changes things, right from the top, and still appears to make sense.


(This post was edited by Andrelux on Apr 19, 2011, 4:04 PM)


Steelback
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Apr 19, 2011, 5:24 PM

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Re: [cope1] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Why do clubs have to have a location in their name in the first place? Is it really that important?



Yes & no, a poster above said Vauxhall Motors are a works team which may have been true in the past but I bet there's no connection between the two now in that I bet no players or officials actually work there or if they do it'll be very very few. Clubs that don't have a town name in the title are less likely to have any support and such don't really do anything to enhance the image or standing of a league if no-one watches them. Just my opinion

AXA in the Gloucestershire League have very few, if any, employees as players whereas the AXA team in the Basingstoke & District League is all AXA Employees and is an actual works team and only a couple of steps down the pyramid.



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Andrelux
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Apr 19, 2011, 6:20 PM

Posts: 1213
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Re: [Steelback] Imagine you had a completely blank sheet of paper [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I believe the question was asked by a self-proclaimed gooner. Other than the fact that there's a tube station nearby (named after the club), there's no such place as Arsenal - shouldn't they be Islington? or Hornsey? ... nevertheless, and despite the fact that he's a gooner, I still agree (although through clenched teeth). I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Durham FA insists on a city name in all clubs registered, which results in ridiculous names.

Consequently, if there's an Arsenal, then why not a Vauxhall Motors, or any other name? What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

...oh, perhaps the FA feels that it devalues things. Well, look to yourselves first, chaps...

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