Non League Matters - The Continuation of Tonys english Football Site 



  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

THIS FORUM IS NOW READ ONLY - PLEASE HEAD OVER TO THE NEW FORUM HERE (CLICK LINK) TO REGISTER A NEW ACCOUNT - THANKS

Home: Non League Football Information: History:
Re-formed clubs

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


Andrelux
First Team Regular

Mar 23, 2011, 1:59 PM

Posts: 1213
Location: Luxembourg
Team(s): Brentford (for my sins - obviously done something really bad in a past life

Post #26 of 39 (7826 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
It would appear that modern fans are more proactive than their historical counterparts, which can only be a good thing.

Or perhaps the objecting fans of Woolwich Arsenal did try to set up a replacement club, but were blocked by the powers that be (Sir Henry Norris clearly being a person of some influence). It was a different age.


I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Nowadays, people feel the history of the club they support: I doubt that that was the case then. I think it was more about watching a team representing your city/town/village/neck of the woods. I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive, quite the opposite: they often complement each other. However, it's the difference between "I support team X, and/because they represent my local patch" and "I'm proud of my local patch, which is why I support team X". In the second instance, people are much more prepared to jump ship...


... after all, club loyalties take a while to build up. You can't imagine a Woolwich Arsenal fan saying "I've supported this club man and boy, as did my father and his father before him", when the club, as a professional entity, was only just over 20 years old.


I'm not aware that Woolwich Arsenal fans did try and set up an AFC.. certainly nothing of the kind emerged, and if they had have tried, they'd have been 80 or so years ahead of their time. They were angry because they no longer had a local professional team to go and watch.


But in those days, fans, like the players, either put up or shut up. So, probably most of them just thought "oh well, best find something else to do on Saturday afternoons", a few might have held their noses and trekked across town to watch the club in their new surroundings, and a few might have switched their allegiance to other local teams of a much lower standard. If it's true, then how the situation might have developed naturally is a matter for conjecture: but then, the war started, and five years later when professional football resumed, everyone was also starting afresh...


I'd also like to cite the case of Chelsea to help me, but my Breedon's book on Fulham (why would a Brentford fan have a book about Fulham? It's a case of knowing your enemy) and my Brentford books are in storage in the UK. I do however have a dim recollection (someone with easier access to the information may be better placed to substantiate this) that Fulham certainly, and Brentford too (despite being an additional half a dozen miles down the road) both suffered in terms of gates from Chelsea suddenly appearing. In Fulham's case, especially surprising since they were Southern League champions the first two years of Chelsea's existence. But if my dim memory is true, it would seem to indicate that a fair few were prepared to transfer their allegiance to the higher ranked local club.


Anyway, just because Arsenal fans back in 1913 didn't get as far as Wimbledon fans did doesn't in itself make the situation different. In both cases, the club left the fans, not the other way around. When FCUM were set up, it was because a proportion of United fans felt that the club had left them too. But are they a continuation of Man Utd? Of course they aren't. There's a few thousand of them (good luck to them by the way), but probably several hundred thousand, possibly millions of Man U fans. But where do you put the bar? At 10%? At 50%? At 80%? And how do you work it out: do you only include people who regularly go to games, or what? And what does regular mean? Season ticket holders, 20 games a season, 5, don't go but watch every game on tele?



I am however sure that if the Arsenal move had happened 90 years later, there wouldn't be enough room on the internet to store all the correspondance about the matter.


(This post was edited by Andrelux on Mar 23, 2011, 2:02 PM)


rainjar
First Team Star

Mar 29, 2011, 4:16 AM

Posts: 1558
Location:
Team(s):

Post #27 of 39 (7756 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Andrelux] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Chelsea, one of several clubs formed to make use of an existing stadium. I wonder if there are any more than those identified so far.

As for the contrast between MK Dons and Arsenal, the bottom line is that AFC Wimbledon were formed as a replacement club while no replacement club was formed by Woolwich Arsenal fans.



Football Insights


rainjar
First Team Star

Mar 29, 2011, 5:42 AM

Posts: 1558
Location:
Team(s):

Post #28 of 39 (7754 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
....

Perhaps "replacement club" is a more value neutral term than "reformed club". Perhaps not.

....


A thread on the current fate of the Alliance Premier League clubs of 30 years ago drew my attention to certain similarities between Enfield and Scarborough - each of them have two clubs potentially serving as successor, one set up primarily by the fans, the other set up with people from within the club (players, staff, junior teams etc).

Enfield have Enfield Town and Enfield 1893, while Scarborough have Scarborough Athletic and Scarborough Town.

Enfield Town (admitted to the Essex Senior League for the 200102 season and currently in the Isthmian League First Division North)


Quote
The club was founded on 23 June 2001 by the Enfield Supporters' Trust, after Trust members considered that the regime in charge of Enfield no longer had the interests of the club at heart and lacked sufficient will to bring about the return of the club to its home town.


Enfield were in the Isthmian League Premier Division at that time. The Wikipedia article states that "The supporters agreed to take a drop three steps in the pyramid to step 5 and the Essex Senior League". I re-checked the steps for 2001-02.

The club play at Goldsdown Road, Brimsdown.

Enfield 1893 (admitted to the Essex Senior League in 2007, currently still there)


Quote
During the close season at the end of the 200607 season, Enfield had no choice but to liquidate due to the debts owed to the inland revenue by former chairman Lazarou, forcing the club to resign from the Isthmian League Division One North. The Enfield Town F.C. chairman approached Enfield F.C. proposing a merger, but the Enfield F.C. officials opted to remain a separate club, reforming as Enfield 1893 F.C.

....

Enfield 1893 joined the Essex Senior League which was situated one step below the Isthmian League First Division North. Enfield 1893 retained all of the Enfield F.C. playing staff who had finished in 13th place in the Isthmian League First Division North the previous season. ....


Also:


Quote
The reformed club were based in Broxbourne, Hertfordshire for the 2009/10 season before finally moving to the borough of Enfield when they moved to Goldsdown Road after a merger with Brimsdown Rovers.


Scarborough Athletic (admitted to NCEL Division 1 in 2007, currently NCEL Premier Division)


Quote
Following the liquidation of Scarborough Football Club [on 20 June 2007], Scarborough Athletic Football Club was founded as a continuation or rebirth of the previous club, by a supporters' trust named The Seadog Trust. They took on the same red kit, nickname, motto and official club logo from the earlier club. The Trust successfully applied for membership of the North Riding F.A. and the Northern Counties East League on 25 June 2007. Due to the unavailability of any suitable ground in the town, a ground-sharing agreement was made with Bridlington Town.


Scarborough Town


Quote
They formed in 2008 following the demise of Scarborough F.C. in 2007, and won two successive championships (Teesside League Division Two and Wearside League) to earn promotion to the Northern Counties East League. However, delays in planning permission caused the NCEL to annul their membership and the club do not have a league in which to play.

....

In 2006 [Scarborough] was in administration and the Conference forcibly relegated [the club] to Conference North and slapped on a 10-point deduction and a transfer embargo. Despite a valiant struggle, [the club] ended in a relegation position and were preparing for a return to the Northern Premier League when a High Court Judge ruled [the club] insolvent and liquidated the club.

....

However, the club's superb Centre of Excellence, Football in the Community scheme and youth team were preserved by moving them to George Pindar Community Sports College at Eastfield, .... The entire Boro team of volunteer youth coaches remained faithful to the club, .... The youth system continued to prosper [as Scarborough Academy] and extended its scope to bring younger players from the age of eight into the training scheme, and then extended the system into an older age group by forming an adult team which entered the Teesside League in August 2008 [as Scarborough Town].

There are two earlier threads on the fate of Scarborough Town - 1st & 2nd

My own sympathies lie with the club formed by supporters. Even without the liquidation of a club, players, staff and even shareholders come and go, and are more likely than fans to move on to other clubs over the course of their involvement with football, while fans are more likely to remain loyal to the club they support. Thus, in my view, in the case of a liquidation and competing claims to be the successor club, the spirit of the old club is better attributed to the successor club formed by the supporters. As I see the spirit of a club and its history as going hand in hand, my own inclination is to treat history in the same way.

In both the above examples, the club formed by the supporters is currently higher-placed in the pyramid.

Where there are two clubs claiming to be the successor to a club that has folded, it might make sense for the two clubs to merge, but I guess it may not always be possible for one reason or another. In the case of Enfield Town/Enfield 1893, they are currently sharing a ground.

Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that for a more objective assessment of the principles involved "successor club" makes more sense than "reformed club".

The term reformed club makes even less sense when the new club is not allowed to use exactly the same name as the old club (hence the spate of AFCs).

When was the rule introduced? It can't have been in existence in 1989 when Newport County was reformed with the same name. In several older examples, clubs were reformed with the same name. Without media coverage of a liquidation of the old club, it might not even be widely known that a club was liquidated and reformed if the reformed club continued to use the exact same name.

On the other hand, when Aldershot Town was formed in 1992 to replace Aldershot, "Town" was added to the name.

Where is the rule to be found?

PS. By the way, why is Enfield 1893 referred to on the NLM main site as "Enfield"?



Football Insights


(This post was edited by rainjar on Mar 29, 2011, 6:37 AM)


cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Mar 29, 2011, 10:57 AM

Posts: 7287
Location:
Team(s):

Post #29 of 39 (7724 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just a note, Newport County wasn't reformed with the same name but was called Newport AFC. They changed to Newport County in 1999. Clearly they are the successor to the club which folded in 1989, but I'm not sure if the different name bears any significance.


(This post was edited by cope1 on Mar 29, 2011, 10:57 AM)


Ropemaker
Man City Transfer Target!

Mar 29, 2011, 1:16 PM

Posts: 7635
Location: Surrey
Team(s): Hailsham Town

Post #30 of 39 (7699 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cope1] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Bradford City (1908) were wound up in 1983.

Bradford City (1983) carried on in the Football League, as you could in those days.



Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


rainjar
First Team Star

Mar 29, 2011, 2:02 PM

Posts: 1558
Location:
Team(s):

Post #31 of 39 (7686 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cope1] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Just a note, Newport County wasn't reformed with the same name but was called Newport AFC. They changed to Newport County in 1999. Clearly they are the successor to the club which folded in 1989, but I'm not sure if the different name bears any significance.


Funnily enough, I remember that from when they were reformed - at that time, it struck me as odd that the new club didn't have "County" in the name.

It slipped my mind when I was checking the year on Wikipedia. Interestingly enough, there is no mention of the club being reformed as Newport AFC on its Wikipedia page, or when the name was changed to include "County". The Wikipedia article presents the club as continuous from the original formed in 1912.

The rule preventing a reformed club from using the same name as the old club might have been in place by 1989. However, it obviously wasn't when Bradford City were reformed in 1983.



Football Insights


(This post was edited by rainjar on Mar 29, 2011, 2:49 PM)


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Mar 29, 2011, 2:35 PM

Posts: 8469
Location:
Team(s):

Post #32 of 39 (7683 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The first time I saw Newport AFC (I think at Weston), the announcer called them Newport County. Cue bunches of fans saying they were Newport AFC, not Newport County and the announcer had to make a correction five minutes later. There was certainly a distinction to be made between the old club and the new club at the time, although i admit this has blurred since then by the return to Somerton Park (and then the new stadium) and the re-adoption of the County suffix in 1999.

It may also be worth noting that Newport County still existed, on paper at least, while Newport AFC were being admitted to the Hellenic League. A place in the Isthmian League Division 3 was held open for them until it was clear that the owner had no means to form a team to play in 1989-90, in fact the Isthmian re-wrote it's constitution to allow teams from South Wales to compete specifically to get them in.

Again, the moral of the story is to not believe anything you read on Wikipedia.

--
Richard


rainjar
First Team Star

Jul 3, 2011, 4:05 PM

Posts: 1558
Location:
Team(s):

Post #33 of 39 (7518 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Richard Rundle] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If Arsenal were liquidated in 1910, they are a re-formed club.



Football Insights


DOUG STROKE
Ballboy/girl

Jul 3, 2011, 10:28 PM

Posts: 1
Location:
Team(s):

Post #34 of 39 (7485 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A side called Woolwich did move into the Manor ground,but they had changed their name from Plumstead the previous season.


rainjar
First Team Star

Nov 14, 2011, 3:17 PM

Posts: 1558
Location:
Team(s):

Post #35 of 39 (7366 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rainjar] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
....

It would be useful to view the re-forming of clubs, and the level at which the re-formed club plays, in a more historical context.

Sometimes, it's not altogether clear from the records whether the club was re-formed at all. It was not uncommon for clubs to be re-formed in the same name as the old club, which is not allowed at present. I suppose it makes it harder to identify a club re-formed in the 19th or 20th century as a re-formed club. It will probably be necessary to review historical documents relating to the club to be able to do so.


A couple of more recent threads got me looking at this thread again:

No entirely new examples though, I don't think, although further illustration of how changes in practices colour perceptions.



Football Insights


(This post was edited by rainjar on Nov 14, 2011, 3:19 PM)


Goonerak
Youth Team Sub

Jun 27, 2012, 10:33 PM

Posts: 152
Location:
Team(s): Royal Arsenal / Woolwich Arsenal

Post #36 of 39 (7071 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DOUG STROKE] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The team called Woolwich that played at the Manor Ground duriing 1913-14 were a brand new team - not Plumstead re-named. There were some directors and players that had been involved with Woolwich Arsenal in the past but none were associated with Woolwich Arsenal in 1913.

They only last 1 season as they disbanded due to the outbreak of the First World War.

As rainjar says, Woolwich Arsenal liquidated in 1910 and new company was set up. George Leavey who bankrolled the club had assurances from the Football League and the Football Association that the new company / club could take the place of the liquidated club.


cope1
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 28, 2012, 12:59 PM

Posts: 7287
Location:
Team(s):

Post #37 of 39 (7043 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Richard Rundle] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Again, the moral of the story is to not believe anything you read on Wikipedia.

--
Richard

The moral of the story is to know that Wikipedia is a very useful source of information but that it is not gospel. Of course, this applies to lots of sources but many people prefer to read something and stop searching.


Mister TwoU
First Team Star


Jun 29, 2012, 9:16 AM

Posts: 2498
Location: Back in hilly Malvern.
Team(s): Malvern Town FC

Post #38 of 39 (7000 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cope1] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

When seriously compared in tests a couple of years ago, Wikipedia was found to be marginally more reliable than Encyclopaedia Britannica.



Professional cretin.


swanstuff
Youth Team Sub

Jan 15, 2013, 12:22 AM

Posts: 134
Location: Staines
Team(s): Staines Town

Post #39 of 39 (6685 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mister TwoU] Re-formed clubs [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Here's the essence of an email I sent to Richard Rundle, webmaster of the excellent Football Club History Database, concerning two clubs fairly local to me with complicated histories.
BURNHAM FC merged with the dying HILLINGDON FC to form BURNHAM & HILLINGDON FC, soon reverting to BURNHAM FC. The FCHD has separate pages for:
  • Hillingdon FC
  • Burnham FC
  • Burnham & Hillingdon FC
FELTHAM FC merged with the dying HOUNSLOW FC to form FELTHAM & HOUNSLOW BOROUGH for a short time, before reverting to the original name, FELTHAM FC. The FCHD has separate pages for
  • Hounslow FC
  • Feltham FC (pre-merger)
  • Feltham & Hounslow Borough FC
  • Feltham FC {1} (post-merger)
In both of these cases, Burnham FC and Feltham FC, the present club is in all respects the same club as the previous version Also, I note that Burnham & Hillingdon actually took the league place of the dying Hillingdon FC, which was not the case with Feltham & Hounslow Borough. A couple of other quirks regarding these two ...
  • True to the FCHD principles, which have the advantage of being clear-cut and of avoiding unnecessary controversy, there are separate pages for Hounslow Town FC before it renamed itself Hounslow FC. In the case of Hillingdon, likewise there are pages for Yiewsley FC, and then for Hillingdon Borough FC (old name, and arguably a different club from the re-formed replacement Hillingdon FC). A brand new Hillingdon Borough FC started in 1990 . I know that this "new" HBFC have worked hard to ally themselves with the old club, but in view of the gap, the continuation through merger of the old club, and the separate ancestry of the new one, I feel that they are different.
  • The [original] Hillingdon Borough FC official history booklet confirms that the change to "Hillingdon FC" took place in summer 1983. It also further bears out the disjoint between "old" and "new" Hillingdon Borough clubs [the latter not having been formed at the time the booklet came out], as the merger into Burnham FC was done to allow the old club the option of breaking away again if a new ground could be found: this was not in fact what happened, the new club being formed from elements of Bromley Park Rangers FC and - if memory serves me correctly - Ruislip FC (formerly Ruislip Town FC).
  • The ancestry of the new Hillingdon Borough FC is: 1981 Ruislip Town FC merged with Coteford FC to form Ruislip FC [Edwards, Leigh - The Official Centenary History of the Southern League]. When this club folded, their ground was taken over by Bromley Park Rangers FC, who, on moving in, renamed themselves after the old club, although I seem to remember that they were briefly known as Hillingdon Borough (1990) FC - I have certainly recorded them as such in my notes for season 1991/2, although the Middlesex FA Directory has them as plain "Hillingdon Borough FC" from the outset in 1990. Wikipedia does however add some weight to the 'continuation' argument by stating that 4 directors from the old club were involved in the BPR move to Breakspear Road, former home of Ruislip, in 1990.
The whole area of old / new clubs is a complete minefield, and I don't envy the task facing anyone untangling the histories of, say, the Leyton clubs. One club that I do feel is rather misleading is that of Hastings United FC, which is simply a rename of Hastings Town FC, some years after the demise of the original Hastings United FC. I have written this as a piece of background research before attempting to clarify the early history of my own club, Staines Town FC (which is where this thread started). It's certainly a very complex and under-researched problem (or perhaps, I could say I have spent a long time researching, but am frustratingly light on hard evidence), but I there are indisputable reasons for pushing the present club's unbroken existence back a decade before Andrelux's estimate. Both sets of war years present a greater problem, and there will probably never be a definitive answer as to whether the club that emerged should categorically be regarded as a continuation of the earlier one, although I am finding connections in both cases. And as for the situation before about 1904, this is very confusing. I have found very little evidence that anything exciting actually happened in 1892 ... the club playing in that year would appear to be the same as one dating back at least another 10 years. I am very slowly compiling a what was meant to be a club history - but I have now virtually decided that it will have to be a "history of football in Staines" (much as the "Dagenham" booklets were) - but of course this draws me into covering clearly UNrelated clubs such as Staines Lammas FC, and those with tenuous links to the historic Staines club(s) such as Staines YC (a forerunner of Ashford Town (Middlesex) FC) and Petter Sports FC (a descendent of a revived Lagonda club). Don't expect publication anytime soon! It was originally a 'centenary project' timed for 1992, then a millennium one (2001 of course), so I've already missed two deadlines.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 


free hit counters

Search for (options) HOSTED BY SUMMIT SOCCER v.1.2.3