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SPL reorganisation

 

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Wheelbarrow
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Dec 12, 2010, 2:33 PM

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SPL reorganisation Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not entirely sure which section to post things about Scottish League, but here goes.

SPL plans for a reorganisation, including regionalisation at level 3, play-offs, winter break and, wait for it, 'B' teams in the second tier...Shocked

http://news.bbc.co.uk/...cot_prem/9279663.stm


dottirofhod
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Dec 12, 2010, 2:43 PM

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Re: [Wheelbarrow] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Winter break , and I wonder when that would be ?



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Wheelbarrow
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Dec 12, 2010, 3:05 PM

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Re: [dottirofhod] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The entirely predictable three week window of bad weather, outwith which all of Scotland is bathed in a warming glow of sun and a gentle zephyr blows across the lush verdant fields.

Obviously.


underthemoon
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Dec 12, 2010, 3:28 PM

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Re: [Wheelbarrow] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Rubbish ideas. They need leagues of 16 clubs each and they need to do something to help clubs competing against the Old Firm. eg redistributing money to clubs who get promoted into the premier division etc. 10 club divisions are a recipe for stagnation as they have more than proved by now. Deadly dull.


Grecian
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Dec 12, 2010, 10:54 PM

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In Reply To
Winter break , and I wonder when that would be ?


yes... it would be quite ironic for there to be a two or three week break during perfectly good footballing weather, only to be followed by a month of blizzards and sub-zero temperatures, forcing matches off.

And, as I'm sure you're hinting at, if it's weather-induced postponements that the break is meant to avoid, when do you take it? November? January? March?

IMHO it would make more sense to schedule 2-3 fixture-free saturdays in March and April so that teams could catch up if matches are abandoned earlier in the season.

Let's see what they come up with officially.


cope1
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Dec 13, 2010, 2:19 PM

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Re: [Wheelbarrow] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the winter break idea is pointless for the reasons already stated - you rule out 3/4 weekends which could be perfectly playable only to find the ones you're still using end up snowed/washed out.

As for the number of teams in a division, I'd much prefer to see 16/18 teams but there just isn't the strength in depth. One of the aims of the reorganisation, I assume, is to improve the standing of Scottish clubs in Europe. Having the top sides face teams previously in the middle of Div 1 is hardly going to do that, even if it does provide more variety.

The idea of redistributing wealth is not even worth discussing as the Old Firm hold enough of the cards to keep a strangle hold. It would be great to even things up it's not likely to happen any time soon.

As for fielding reserves in the 2nd or 3rd tiers, the purist in me is against it but the pragamtist suspects there may be more pros than cons. Apart from giving the reserves of the top clubs better match practice it also means their opponents will get a few decent gates as, from what I understand, the Old Firm 2nd strings don't draw badly compared with many SFL clubs.


Degerloch
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Dec 13, 2010, 3:04 PM

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Re: [cope1] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Oh no, not again! How often is this league restructured? Far too often, and never with a satisfactory result. When the SPL was proposed 13 years ago, Raith Rovers happily signed on the dotted line, even though they knew they were likely to go down to the First Division. They thought they'd be back at the top table before long. They were wrong. Can you really see Aberdeen voting for this proposal?
The plan falls down on 2 points (forgetting the winter break)
- they say - there isn't enough quality for a 16 team league - but there is enough quality for two leagues of ten.
- overall quality will improve and the league will become less stagnant - but fewer teams will play the biggest teams (ie the old firm)and each other.
solution - 2 leagues of 16 3up/3down plus 4,5&6 play 13th placed team in play offs
should keep most teams on their toes.


cope1
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Dec 13, 2010, 3:32 PM

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Re: [Degerloch] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't understand what you're saying about the league size: "there isn't enough quality for a 16 team league - but there is enough quality for two leagues of ten" - yes, exactly, one will be the 2nd tier so it's not expected to be top level standard.

You have to remember that most of the changes here are not about competition format - except that it will get ridded of the hated split - they're about business model and financial setup. One of the main points is to do with parachute payments so that clubs relegated from the top division don't face financial oblivion. Unless Aberdeen have another awful season next year they won't have too much to worry about as it's expected to come in for 2012-13, not 11-12 (although the latter is a slight possibility). And as for clubs playing or not playing the Old Firm, it'll be two fewer clubs playing them. Are they really going to hang everything on those two random clubs not getting their Old Firm paydays?

The argument about it becoming less stagnant I can only think refers to the fight for European places and the bottom half of the table as the Old Firm are still going to win every year. But at least this proposal allows for up to 2 clubs changing places, rather than a maximum of 1. I don't see how you can think 16 teams is going to improve the quality of play in the top flight. It would simply mean a bigger gap between top and bottom and more 1-sided games for the top teams.


IAN S
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Dec 13, 2010, 3:54 PM

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I can't see any amount of reorganisation changing the staus quo regarding the Auld Firm. Both clubs are far too big for the Scottish League or whatever you want to call it. Trouble is no other league either wants or needs them.

Personally, I would think two leagues of 12 clubs would be better and regionalise the remainder. Where do you have the boundary between the regions? A club such as Shire? Do you send them up to play Buckie Thistle or down to Stranraer or Berwick? Do you have the same ridiculous rule that these top two division's clubs must have all seater stadiums?

As for B' teams, as someone who doesn't watch such games then it would be a non-starter for me. Then again I only go up hopping a couple of times a season, it's down to the supporters who will watch week in week out to vote with their feet not the likes of me.



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buncranaboy
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Dec 13, 2010, 4:10 PM

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Re: [IAN S] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is it mere coincidence that talk of suspending relegation and having another restructure seems to occur at the same time as Aberdeen hit the bottom of the league ?


underthemoon
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Dec 13, 2010, 4:52 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

One thing is true you have to appeal to the self interest of the Old Firm to get change.....This is what i would do....A 16 team premier league with 10% of all income from the SPL clubs going into a central pot....To be used for variety of things ground improvements and finance for promoted clubs .....Money prize for Scottish trophy.....
Clubs would play Home and Away.......Top 5 clubs would then go into a mini league at the end of the season playing each other 2x

the other teams would go into the scottish trophy with 32 clubs from League one and two and 5 that have fought there way from the non league.....
It would make for a much better product for the TV and would increase the income of all clubs and increasecompetitiveness.....


cope1
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Dec 13, 2010, 5:01 PM

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Re: [underthemoon] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But you'd still have the split, except now you'd have to play 40 league games. I think it's accepted that nothing short of a miracle will see anyone outside the Old Firm winning the title so I think having a split is a bad idea because it clamps down on the competition outside the top 2.

Would the trophy be a knock out competition? If so, do you really think those other clubs are going to settle for only 31 guaranteed games? And although it might sound attractive to us, I can't see the SFL teams being all that thrilled at the gates they'll draw playing non-leaguers. It has to make business sense - and unfortunately involving 4 tiers in an end of season competition wouldn't do that.

If there is to be a split I think two divisions of 12 with the top 8 into a Champions Group, the bottom 4 in SPL1 and top 4 in SPL2 into a Promotion Group and the rest into a Relegation Group. You could do what the Swiss and Austrians used to do by splitting the points in half before starting the final phase - that at least would bring the rest closer to the Old Firm. A 10 point gap after 22 games is suddenly only 5 etc.


Degerloch
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Dec 13, 2010, 5:18 PM

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Re: [cope1] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The big problem is playing each other 4 times in the league each season - with a possibility of 7 meetings in cups/replays. You can be guaranteed that you'll meet some teams 5 times a season. The players know each other inside out. The whole thing is mind numbingly dull at times. The Premier League was set up after celtic had won countless numbers of league titles in a row. Rangers won an equally dull number of titles in a row under the "new" system. What has improved? - not much. You could argue that in the first years of the Premier Division, when there was always one team which was cast adrift early on, so the quality across the board did not exist. When Dundee were relegated, they had started the post-split round of games in 7th place. Maybe things are evening themselves out in terms of over all quality and there is less of a gulf between the first and premier divisions.
The big fear for the SPL/SFL is that the whole show might collapse, with clubs going under regularly. Keeping the money in the top flight has done very little except starve the smaller clubs. The old firm don't need the money as much as other clubs, their fan base is huge. Their brand power is strong. They do, however need to be big fish in a small pond in order to have a chance of earning money in Europe. This reorganisation boils down to - will the old firm like it? I know that the votes needed are 11-1, but the old firm always vote together (this is where the name derives from). We could have a league which promotes real competition, but if rangers and celtic don't like it, it won't happen.


underthemoon
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Dec 13, 2010, 6:40 PM

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But you'd still have the split, except now you'd have to play 40 league games. I think it's accepted that nothing short of a miracle will see anyone outside the Old Firm winning the title so I think having a split is a bad idea because it clamps down on the competition outside the top 2.

Would the trophy be a knock out competition? If so, do you really think those other clubs are going to settle for only 31 guaranteed games? And although it might sound attractive to us, I can't see the SFL teams being all that thrilled at the gates they'll draw playing non-leaguers. It has to make business sense - and unfortunately involving 4 tiers in an end of season competition wouldn't do that.

If there is to be a split I think two divisions of 12 with the top 8 into a Champions Group, the bottom 4 in SPL1 and top 4 in SPL2 into a Promotion Group and the rest into a Relegation Group. You could do what the Swiss and Austrians used to do by splitting the points in half before starting the final phase - that at least would bring the rest closer to the Old Firm. A 10 point gap after 22 games is suddenly only 5 etc.

5 teams playing each other 2x each eg 38 games in all. I dont agree about it making it less competitive for the non old firm clubs. A place in the top 5 with 4 extra guarnteed home games would be much more incentive than they get now if the cup was properly promoted.
And having non league/junior clubs has worked well in the scottish cup and could do in a scottish trophy too.


cope1
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Dec 13, 2010, 7:04 PM

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Re: [underthemoon] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Going by the access list at http://www.xs4all.nl/...uefa/access2011.html there are 4 places for Scotland in Europe next season. If you have a top 5 split then those teams in 6th, 7th or 8th place, who might otherwise be pressing for Europe, can then not qualify at all. I'm sure they'd be less than chuffed at being told that after 30 games they lose out on a chance of Europe in exchange for playing Edinburgh City in a cup game.

You're basically saying that for all but the top 5 the last 1/4 of a season is a cup competition (so possibly only 1 game). Having non-league teams in the Scottish Cup is fine, but that's in addition to league games. I can't see anyone voting to have 2 such competitions at the expense of 8 SPL games.


underthemoon
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Going by the access list at http://www.xs4all.nl/...uefa/access2011.html there are 4 places for Scotland in Europe next season. If you have a top 5 split then those teams in 6th, 7th or 8th place, who might otherwise be pressing for Europe, can then not qualify at all. I'm sure they'd be less than chuffed at being told that after 30 games they lose out on a chance of Europe in exchange for playing Edinburgh City in a cup game.

You're basically saying that for all but the top 5 the last 1/4 of a season is a cup competition (so possibly only 1 game). Having non-league teams in the Scottish Cup is fine, but that's in addition to league games. I can't see anyone voting to have 2 such competitions at the expense of 8 SPL games.



If the other SPL clubs wanted more games, they could have group stages....The attendances generally against non league/junior clubs have been quite good. For St Mirren a home tie with Pollok would probably bring a bigger gate than against Inverness or Motherwell.

The top 5 split would keep most SPL clubs in the mix for either top 5 or relegation. Games would mean something.


cope1
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Dec 13, 2010, 11:48 PM

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Re: [underthemoon] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But the reason the gate at St Mirren vs Pollock is good is because it's a 1-off. If you made it more common it wouldn't be so attractive. The beauty of the Scottish Cup is that it has that 1-off-ness, which is different from the league.

As for the top-5 idea, how do you answer my contention that you cut out the 6th, 7th and 8th placed team from that 'competition' that you want to encourage? And how do you plan a 5-team league having 1 team free each week? You need even teams to give them all a game each week.


acmold
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Re: [cope1] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or

Premier Division two clubs no relegation.

Division One 16 / 18 clubs

Division Two North 16 /18

Division Two South 16 / 18 clubs

4 regional leagues (inc Juniors)

8 regional divisions

16 regional divisions


underthemoon
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But the reason the gate at St Mirren vs Pollock is good is because it's a 1-off. If you made it more common it wouldn't be so attractive. The beauty of the Scottish Cup is that it has that 1-off-ness, which is different from the league.

As for the top-5 idea, how do you answer my contention that you cut out the 6th, 7th and 8th placed team from that 'competition' that you want to encourage? And how do you plan a 5-team league having 1 team free each week? You need even teams to give them all a game each week.

Cope but St Mirren wouldnt be playing Pollok that often unless Pollok went up the leagues, which given their level of support is possible i suppose. But its unlikely the same league side would draw a non league team too often. Look at St Mirrens crowd on saturday v St Johnstone. The fans simply do not want to see those same games over and over again.
The 6th,7th and 8th team would all want to win the Scottish trophy and be seen as favourites and the big guns in that cup. They would also have next season to look forwards too with a realistic chance of getting in the top 5.

A 5 team league could work like this
Fri Hibs v Rangers
Sat Dundee utd v Hearts
Tue Celtic v Hibs
Wed Rangers v Dundee utd
Fri Hearts v Celtic
Sat Hibs v Dundee utd
Mon Rangers v Hearts
Mon Dundee utd v Celtic
Wed Hearts v Hibs
Wed Celtic v Rangers

and then the reverse fixtures in more or less the same order. This would fill the stadiums and be a much more attractive product for TV.


cope1
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Dec 14, 2010, 4:42 PM

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Re: [underthemoon] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Can you give me more idea what the Trophy would look like? I'm still not convinced that a knock out competition would replace a league.

In my opinion, the big issue is the stranglehold of the Old Firm. I can't see they'll let go of that any time soon, so they are stuck playing teams who don't challenge them enough to prepare them for Europe, while the rest are stuck with the knowledge that they will always be fighting for 3rd place.

The only way I can see you can get around that is to revive the idea of the Atlantic League with teams from Scotland, Netherlands and Portugal. Except not as a breakway, but integrated into the existing season. So 12 teams in each league playing each other twice, with the top 4 playing the top 4 from the other 2 leagues while the bottom 8 either play each other or some arrangement of playing lower division teams.


underthemoon
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Can you give me more idea what the Trophy would look like? I'm still not convinced that a knock out competition would replace a league.

In my opinion, the big issue is the stranglehold of the Old Firm. I can't see they'll let go of that any time soon, so they are stuck playing teams who don't challenge them enough to prepare them for Europe, while the rest are stuck with the knowledge that they will always be fighting for 3rd place.

The only way I can see you can get around that is to revive the idea of the Atlantic League with teams from Scotland, Netherlands and Portugal. Except not as a breakway, but integrated into the existing season. So 12 teams in each league playing each other twice, with the top 4 playing the top 4 from the other 2 leagues while the bottom 8 either play each other or some arrangement of playing lower division teams.



I think you could have a group stage first for the trophy to guarantee a few games for all teams. And then go to a knockout stage.
I think if you look at my top 5 cup it would appeal to TV and that in turn would appeal to the Old Firm. The idea of redistributing 10% of income might not appeal that much to them but it would make the league more competitive. And if they had a more appealing end of season product to sell overall their income should rise significantly.
I don't like the idea of an atlantic league much. For clubs in Holland they would probably rather a competition with Belgian,French or German clubs and Portuguese clubs would probably prefer to play Spanish clubs. I cant see it being very popular.


IAN S
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Dec 14, 2010, 7:17 PM

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Re: [underthemoon] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Apart from Edinburgh derby and Auld Firm why would this fill the stadiums, I would think the opposite would be the case.



We'll be, as we are, when all the fools who doubt us fade away.


IAN S
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Dec 14, 2010, 7:18 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] SPL reorganisation [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Look out for similar in Premier League if ever Everton or West Ham finish in bottom three!!



We'll be, as we are, when all the fools who doubt us fade away.


underthemoon
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Dec 14, 2010, 7:34 PM

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Apart from Edinburgh derby and Auld Firm why would this fill the stadiums, I would think the opposite would be the case.



If it was marketed well. And i think it would be by TV company. It would hold lots of appeal. Imagine if your a Hibs fan you can look forwards to an extra 4 home games, 3 of those Hearts,Celtic and Rangers. The club could probably sell a group season ticket. At the moment the Scottish game holds little appeal for TV broadcasters and that has to be addressed. In Rugby League they have something a bit similar i think.


buncranaboy
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Dec 15, 2010, 12:18 AM

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Look out for similar in Premier League if ever Everton or West Ham finish in bottom three!!



West Ham are quite good at going down as it happens. Everton on the other hand..............

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