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A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country

 

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VP
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Sep 28, 2009, 10:53 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Bloody hell - is this still going?
I've been out and watched a match tonight hoping to come back to the answer but it's not here.
Come on Luxy - spill the beans. The suspenders are killing me.

(PS - anything to do with whatever authority covers Portsmouth?).


northstandexile
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Re: [VP] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Devonport/Plymouth area as we seem to be talking navy.


Andrelux
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Re: [Richard Rundle] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I would say Hackney

coz of the marshes

I would say Harwich

coz of the inbreeding. Sly

No, not Harwich (or to be more precise, Tendring)... but since this isn't 20 questions, I'm happy to provide clues. The coastline bit could be worth exploring...


My guesses would be either Southend-on-Sea, Stroud or Adur

--
Richard

Final clue. Services+coastline=

As I said at the beginning the answer is surprising.


cope1
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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Dover!
Portsmouth!


Andrelux
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Dover!
Portsmouth!

Got it in two! Portsmouth it is.

And therefore the answer to part (b) is....


Andrelux
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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 Out of the 31,051 male, adult, 11-a-side teams according to April 2008 figures, 316 are listed as having their playing base in Portsmouth - home of the Senior Service, and where many Royal Navy teams (and the Royal Navy FA is also a county FA) are listed as being based. I counted 149 HMS teams. Before anyone says we don't have 149 ships, pretty much all of them have more than one side (e.g. HMS Ark Royal, 5 teams).

Using 2001 census figures (I've checked the likely contenders against 2008 populatio estimates, and the relationship doesn't change), the top 10 local authorities according to number of people per team are:

1. Portsmouth - Hampshire 591
2. Winchester - Hampshire 616 (loads of Army teams)
3. Rochford - Essex 643 (the leader if you don't include service teams)
4. Richmondshire - North Yorkshire 723 (Army teams)
5. Durham - 769
6. West Oxfordshire - 797 (although there are 16 teams at RAF Brize Norton)
7. Bath & NE Somerset - 797
8. South Cambridgeshire - 803
9. Hounslow - London - 817
10. Tandridge - Surrey - 817

And the ten laggards are:

1. Kensington and Chelsea - London - 13243
2. Knowsley - Lancashire - 6542
3. Lambeth - London - 6337
4. Brent - London - 4790
5. Havant - Hampshire - 3895
6. Camden - London - 3667
7. Slough - Berkshire - 3218
8. St Helens - Lancashire - 3215
9. Fylde - Lancashire - 3183
10. Oxford - 3122.

The overall average is 1582.


Three Sides
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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I thought the population of Portsmouth was too dense. Oh, no I can't say that can I?, I mean plentyful! (More than Swindon anyway!!)

Skewed by all the Navy teams registered?

20ish HMS teams alone

EDIT: Posting reply at same time as answer appeared above. I under estimated the ships somewhat!!!!!


(This post was edited by Three Sides on Sep 29, 2009, 11:02 AM)


Andrelux
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Bloody hell - is this still going?
I've been out and watched a match tonight hoping to come back to the answer but it's not here.
Come on Luxy - spill the beans. The suspenders are killing me.

(PS - anything to do with whatever authority covers Portsmouth?).

Oops - sorry VP, looks like you were the first after all.


acmold
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Sep 29, 2009, 11:27 AM

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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or

Interesting to see West Oxfordshire in one list and Oxford City in the other list. This may be that Oxford city charge such high rents for their pitch's that clubs cannot afford to play in the City so tend to go outside the city for their football. On a Saturday, though a slight increase this season the Oxford City Junior League has 16 / 18 teams while the North Berks and Witney & District has 5 or 6 division's each. The Oxford Sunday League has gone completely.

Another factor is Oxford city's boundaries, in places the boundaries have not been changed to reflect the growth of the city / urban area so the city boundary in places is three or four miles before the end of the actual built up areas, so much of what you would think is Oxford ends up in the county. While places like Swindon, Northampton, Peterborough and Newport to name a few have regigged their boundaries so you enter the town / city in most places before you enter the built up area.


Andrelux
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Interesting to see West Oxfordshire in one list and Oxford City in the other list. This may be that Oxford city charge such high rents for their pitch's that clubs cannot afford to play in the City so tend to go outside the city for their football. On a Saturday, though a slight increase this season the Oxford City Junior League has 16 / 18 teams while the North Berks and Witney & District has 5 or 6 division's each. The Oxford Sunday League has gone completely.

Another factor is Oxford city's boundaries, in places the boundaries have not been changed to reflect the growth of the city / urban area so the city boundary in places is three or four miles before the end of the actual built up areas, so much of what you would think is Oxford ends up in the county. While places like Swindon, Northampton, Peterborough and Newport to name a few have regigged their boundaries so you enter the town / city in most places before you enter the built up area.

That's what I thought.

I think it's also part of the reason why, as a for example, there's so many inner London boroughs in the second list - there just aren't the places to play, or as you say, the cost of a council pitch is punitively expensive, so, as a player, you probably have to travel a few miles just outside the limits of your local authority to play. Haven't done the maths, but it looks like if you compare inner London boroughs to outer London or "just-outside London" boroughs, the first lot are under-represented, the second over-represented because of that very fact. It's probably also true elsewhere but most noticeable in London because (a) boroughs tend to be smaller in area and (b) there's more people. The trend would probably exist in Birmingham, for example, and probably in any area which includes a city centre and some outlying areas, but that is usually lost because they're all often included in the same local authority.

So, probably, if you took down the addresses of everyone who played for a West Oxfordshire club, you might find that quite a few of them live in the city of Oxford.


That's also why I think that although I'm collecting info on a per-local authority basis, amalgamating that into a "county" basis helps smooth out some of those inconsistencies, and would make more sense.


cope1
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Is the Portsmouth Dockyard League still going? I've just read 'Comrade Jim: The Spy Who Played for Spartak' by James Riordan who mentions playing in the PDyL.

I assume the number is skewed by the navy's presence. HMS Excellent played one year in the SAL based in Portsmouth in the 1930s.


Andrelux
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And weren't HMS Victory the opponents in the Amateur Cup when Wimbledon (the pounds, shillings and pence version) had their record crowd?


MadMick
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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Right - there are 88 full size pitches on Hackney Marshes - lets say conservatively they are each used twice in a week, that makes 176 teams at home, the next week there will be a different 176 teams at home there, giving 352 teams.

Population of Hackney is approx 212000, which by my maths makes 1 team per about 600 which puts it comfortably in your top 10.

The FA say there are 125000 affiliated teams. OK at least half of those are kids teams; but I still think you are missing lots in your list of 31051. I would have thought the figure was nearer 50000.


cope1
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From my experience of sports grounds with lots of pitches I'd say a lot of them are not used every week to the extent that it's almost worth saying each pitch is used once a week rather than twice. That would work out at more like 1 team per 1200. I'm not saying Andrelux's figures are spot on but I don't think it's hugely unlikely that Hackney doesn't figure in the top ten.


MattRamLives
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just from playing around as it were
Halifax was very strong football wise - Sheffield and Donny loads of teams - Chessie too
Unfortunately the leagues seem to shrink a bit each year - Derby certainly has
I think leagues and the FA generally should address the after the under 16'S bit - its easy as a team when you go in different directions at that age for the team to be lost - why not U17's - why is it generally U18 after 16?


MadMick
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From my experience of sports grounds with lots of pitches I'd say a lot of them are not used every week to the extent that it's almost worth saying each pitch is used once a week rather than twice. That would work out at more like 1 team per 1200. I'm not saying Andrelux's figures are spot on but I don't think it's hugely unlikely that Hackney doesn't figure in the top ten.


Fair enough;but it would be interesting to see the stats if all the 'friendly only' teams were taken out. Though I accept of course this would be way too difficult and time consuming to work out.


cope1
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From my experience of sports grounds with lots of pitches I'd say a lot of them are not used every week to the extent that it's almost worth saying each pitch is used once a week rather than twice. That would work out at more like 1 team per 1200. I'm not saying Andrelux's figures are spot on but I don't think it's hugely unlikely that Hackney doesn't figure in the top ten.


Fair enough;but it would be interesting to see the stats if all the 'friendly only' teams were taken out. Though I accept of course this would be way too difficult and time consuming to work out.


Agreed. I'd like to see data broken down into Sat/Sun/Midweek as well.

Andrelux - can you do this for us? By Friday will be fine...


Andrelux
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From my experience of sports grounds with lots of pitches I'd say a lot of them are not used every week to the extent that it's almost worth saying each pitch is used once a week rather than twice. That would work out at more like 1 team per 1200. I'm not saying Andrelux's figures are spot on but I don't think it's hugely unlikely that Hackney doesn't figure in the top ten.


Fair enough;but it would be interesting to see the stats if all the 'friendly only' teams were taken out. Though I accept of course this would be way too difficult and time consuming to work out.


Agreed. I'd like to see data broken down into Sat/Sun/Midweek as well.

Andrelux - can you do this for us? By Friday will be fine...

Two answers:

(1) all I'm doing is reporting the FA figures. 125,000 teams includes everything thrown into the mix - not just youth footbal, but women's football (not that many, actually, about 2-3% of the total) and a lot of 5-a-side football as well.
(2) as far as your question is concerned, can you wait a minute while I don my superman costume....

... more specifically, I did try and do a count of Saturday teams only for last year. I excluded u-18s (so it wasn't a like-for-like match, these figures include u-18s but not u-16s), but it came to around 13,000. Midweek was not that many - hundreds, maybe a thousand tops. Never really tried to enumerate Sunday teams (there's a bit of double counting as well, although probably not that much), but gut feel was that it was, taken as a round, a bit lower than Saturday teams... guesstimate (and it is only a guesstimate) about 80-90% - so 10-12 thousand odd. That still leaves about 5,000 member teams, some of whom may even be playing in leagues we are not yet recording.

Work to do yet, chaps!!!


Andrelux
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Right - there are 88 full size pitches on Hackney Marshes - lets say conservatively they are each used twice in a week, that makes 176 teams at home, the next week there will be a different 176 teams at home there, giving 352 teams.

Population of Hackney is approx 212000, which by my maths makes 1 team per about 600 which puts it comfortably in your top 10.

The FA say there are 125000 affiliated teams. OK at least half of those are kids teams; but I still think you are missing lots in your list of 31051. I would have thought the figure was nearer 50000.

Hackney surprised me, I have to say. I thought it would be well up there. However, my info shows a disappointing 117 teams - and hence a position in the second half of the table.

Don't blame the messenger!


Andrelux
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Plus, the Hackney issue may also have something to do with the way the data is presented. The pertinent comment is "teams which have their playing base in the Local Authority". I'm guessing that the FA base this on information they have on the clubs as part of their affiliation process, so consequently it's a matter of how the information is provided. Most seem to choose the option of where they actually play, others maybe where they are based.?.. in most cases that doesn't matter, since the answer to both lies in the same Local Authority. However it may give rise to the odd anomaly. I noticed in passing, for example, that there are 4 teams in the City of London. For the life of me, I can't think where THAT pitch might be (!!!) so clearly they fall into the second category, and are composed of players who all work for the same company based in the City.

As I say, I don't think the information is by any means perfect, but I think it's fairly good. There are loads of anomalies that I can think of (the Portsmouth/Winchester one is perhaps the most glaring), but there are others. As another for-instance, when looking through the information previously, I noticed there were a number of teams who were clearly placed in the wrong Local Authority - perhaps put in a wrong postcode for example. However, the number of those was fairly small (I spotted a dozen or so in 13,000 teams... although I probably missed quite a few others...). You also get the case where a club has a number of teams which may be based in more than one L.A. - but generally speaking that one seems to be dealt with adequately (or perhaps not... does it make sense to say that Chelsea reserves, for example, are in one L.A. whereas their first team is in another?)


In any case, a lot of the anomalies would end up cancelling each other out if the data were presented by county rather than by L.A. I personally think the Local Authority thing may be too fine-grained, but it's a lot easier to amalgamate what you've got than to try and break it down!


(This post was edited by Andrelux on Sep 30, 2009, 12:32 PM)


stevegraze
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Re: [MadMick] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Several different adult leagues play on the Marshes: The Hackney and Leyton, East London Sunday League...even the Camden and Turkish leagues play games there at times! Plus ladies and kids football. The sheer number of teams on the Marshes on any given day is jaw dropping. Then there's Victoria Park too...


Andrelux
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Yes, bizarre, isn't it. There's shed loads of pitches on Hackney Marshes, and Victoria Park isn't too shabby either. Yet the FA figures show only 117 (male, adult, etc...) teams based in the London Borough of Hackney in April 2008. Even more strange, there were only 5 teams playing Saturday League football in the Borough last season, which for anyone wandering around the area on a Saturday afternoon is strange in the extreme. However, I think the disparity is partly due to the FA definition of "club's playing base" which can be interpreted two ways - where you play, or where your club is registered. That, I reckon, depends on how people fill in the form....

... Else, I'm missing an important Saturday Football League?

Not impossible, as I've just found another, the London Football Saturday league, morning and afternoon sections. Only one of the teams play on Hackney Marshes though...

There's also the possibility that some of those teams may not affilate to the FA. It is possible, you know....


(This post was edited by Andrelux on Oct 18, 2009, 2:34 PM)


stevegraze
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Re: [Andrelux] A trivia question... related to over/under representation in different parts of the country [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes its bizarre. The Hackney and Leyton League alone has 56 teams and the East London Sunday League has 42 teams (those two leagues alone have 98 teams). I know that Hackney and Leyton teams HAVE to be affiliated with the LFA.

I've not heard of the London Football Saturday league before. What is its catchment area?



Andrelux
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Yes its bizarre. The Hackney and Leyton League alone has 56 teams and the East London Sunday League has 42 teams (those two leagues alone have 98 teams). I know that Hackney and Leyton teams HAVE to be affiliated with the LFA.

I've not heard of the London Football Saturday league before. What is its catchment area?

Nor had I, but it appears to be mainly Westish London... Regent's Park, Paddington Park & co seems to be the sweet spot for home games. However, it does seem to have one or two outposts. Even a couple south of the river, in Wandsworth. The website, for anyone who's interested is http://www.londonfootball.co.uk/. Very frustrating, as you seem to need to log in to get any up-to-date info. From last year, Birkbeck College reserves have now joined the first team in the AFC, Yalova have rejoined the Turkish League (and hence moved into Sunday football), and Wesley Park are now in the London Commercial League. High turnover of teams.

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