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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Ebbsfleet players budget

 



mr creosote
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Jun 2, 2009, 9:12 AM

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Ebbsfleet players budget Can't Post or Reply Privately

I heard from a supporter last night that Ebbsfleet have cut their wages budget for players to 4,000 a week for next season, and are holding open trials. That's about 200 a player p/w. I know of sunday league players who wouldn't play for that. I exaggerate, of course, but you know what I mean. Would the last one out of Ebbsfleet/Gravesend/Northfleet please turn out the lights.


GSB
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Jun 2, 2009, 9:51 AM

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Re: [mr creosote] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But if that's what they can afford, recognizing this and acting on it itself makes them a stronger club than dozens of others in the upper reaches of non-league.


UKPunk
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Jun 2, 2009, 10:28 AM

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Re: [GSB] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If it is true my thoughts are that it's nice to see a club cutting its cloth accordingly etc. If it means they find their natural level is a bit lower than at present then so be it. At least the fans will still have a club to support.



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Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


Dovecote
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Jun 2, 2009, 10:40 AM

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I heard from a supporter last night that Ebbsfleet have cut their wages budget for players to 4,000 a week for next season, and are holding open trials. That's about 200 a player p/w.



4000 divided by 16 = 250 per week. Not bad for a semi-pro footballer.

Do you know if the 4000 is nett or gross?


Mr. T
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Jun 2, 2009, 10:47 AM

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Re: [mr creosote] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Previous post suggested that budget was 5,000: http://www.nlpl.co.uk/...orum.cgi?post=173853


acmold
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Jun 2, 2009, 10:55 AM

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Re: [Mr. T] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or

Have they not got a few players on contract who are getting far in excess of 250 a week ?. I think Ebbsfleet "outbid" some other clubs last close season to ascertain certain players who are still contract for the coming season.


UKPunk
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:00 AM

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Post #7 of 25 (1890 views)
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I heard from a supporter last night that Ebbsfleet have cut their wages budget for players to 4,000 a week for next season, and are holding open trials. That's about 200 a player p/w.



4000 divided by 16 = 250 per week. Not bad for a semi-pro footballer.

Do you know if the 4000 is nett or gross?

It's gross all right! It's gross that they're cutting the wages to 4,000 per week. Last year they averaged 1,203 through the gate. According to their website they'll be charging 15 to get in via a normal gate ticket. Disregarding concessions for simplification my calculator says they'll be making 18,045 per week through the gate on average. Even without any deduction from that total they'll still be spending around 25% of their income through the gate on players wages.

My point is, if they'll be spending that percentage after cutbacks, what percentage have they been spending in the season just finished? Crazy



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Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


acmold
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:07 AM

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Post #8 of 25 (1884 views)
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I heard from a supporter last night that Ebbsfleet have cut their wages budget for players to 4,000 a week for next season, and are holding open trials. That's about 200 a player p/w.



4000 divided by 16 = 250 per week. Not bad for a semi-pro footballer.

Do you know if the 4000 is nett or gross?

It's gross all right! It's gross that they're cutting the wages to 4,000 per week. Last year they averaged 1,203 through the gate. According to their website they'll be charging 15 to get in via a normal gate ticket. Disregarding concessions for simplification my calculator says they'll be making 18,045 per week through the gate on average. Even without any deduction from that total they'll still be spending around 25% of their income through the gate on players wages.

My point is, if they'll be spending that percentage after cutbacks, what percentage have they been spending in the season just finished? Crazy

I would make it, 18,045 per home game, not per week. Times that figure by say 25 (23 league games and "2" more home games via cup ties 4 cup ties makes two games, shared expenses, etc). That's an income of 451,125. Outgoings on wages 4,000 x 42 weeks, presume non contract players not paid during summer, makes 168,000 - 37% on wages.


UKPunk
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:16 AM

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It's gross all right! It's gross that they're cutting the wages to 4,000 per week. Last year they averaged 1,203 through the gate. According to their website they'll be charging 15 to get in via a normal gate ticket. Disregarding concessions for simplification my calculator says they'll be making 18,045 per week through the gate on average. Even without any deduction from that total they'll still be spending around 25% of their income through the gate on players wages.

My point is, if they'll be spending that percentage after cutbacks, what percentage have they been spending in the season just finished? Crazy

I would make it, 18,045 per home game, not per week. Times that figure by say 25 (23 league games and "2" more home games via cup ties 4 cup ties makes two games, shared expenses, etc). That's an income of 451,125. Outgoings on wages 4,000 x 42 weeks, presume non contract players not paid during summer, makes 168,000 - 37% on wages.

Ok, I didn't get the figures right but my point still stands up. Considering there must be other expensive outlays throughout the season (ground upkeep and improvements, transfer kitty etc.) it seems an excessive outlay on wages even with the cutbacks. I'll be interested to hear the views of those who help to run a club as to whether I'm talking sense or total [email protected]@cks. Unsure



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


acmold
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:21 AM

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It's gross all right! It's gross that they're cutting the wages to 4,000 per week. Last year they averaged 1,203 through the gate. According to their website they'll be charging 15 to get in via a normal gate ticket. Disregarding concessions for simplification my calculator says they'll be making 18,045 per week through the gate on average. Even without any deduction from that total they'll still be spending around 25% of their income through the gate on players wages.

My point is, if they'll be spending that percentage after cutbacks, what percentage have they been spending in the season just finished? Crazy

I would make it, 18,045 per home game, not per week. Times that figure by say 25 (23 league games and "2" more home games via cup ties 4 cup ties makes two games, shared expenses, etc). That's an income of 451,125. Outgoings on wages 4,000 x 42 weeks, presume non contract players not paid during summer, makes 168,000 - 37% on wages.

Ok, I didn't get the figures right but my point still stands up. Considering there must be other expensive outlays throughout the season (ground upkeep and improvements, transfer kitty etc.) it seems an excessive outlay on wages even with the cutbacks. I'll be interested to hear the views of those who help to run a club as to whether I'm talking sense or total [email protected]@cks. Unsure

Quite agree, it actually re-enforces your point as it's actually a higher percentage. This is why so many clubs get into trouble their ratio of outgoings compared to incomings is not what you would expect in the "real" world..


UKPunk
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:25 AM

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Post #11 of 25 (1867 views)
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Re: [acmold] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So what would you (or others) say is a top limit percentage wise a club should be spending on players wages in relation to their income?



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


Darren Lovell
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Jun 2, 2009, 11:42 AM

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Post #12 of 25 (1855 views)
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Re: [UKPunk] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

No doubt there'll be a few posts made between the time I write this and actually post it but here goes!

Ebbsfleet United are in the process of returning to part-time status having been full-time last season. Their budget is reported as being 5000 per week gross (roughly 4000 per week net) and before anybody says "beware of people knowing other clubs' playing budgets," this figure has been widely reported in the media with the source being the club itself.

A player at Conference National level (most players are full time) would realistically earn in the region of 500 to 550 per week (2000 to 2500 per month) which is a realistic working weekly wage in this day and age. A weekly player budget of 4000 net would be what a club in the Isthmian Premier League top third would expect to have to spend in recent seasons.

I'm not going to try and justify every penny that a football club generates and then spends but consider the other income sources (which in comparison to gate money is generally negligible):

Club sponsorship
Advertising income
Food and drink income
programme sales
club lottery etc
transfer income
supporters' club donations etc
league sposnsorship income
tv income
event income (sportsmans' evenings etc)

Now consider the possible outgoings:

Player wages
staff wages
Paying off of current contracted staff
Kit/equipment purchase
debt/loan maintenance
ground maintenance/upgrades
training facility costs
travel costs
transfer fees
advertising costs
reserve/youth team costs (eg alternative venues/kit/travel)
competition fees
insurance fees
brewery fees (if applicable)

I'm sure that there are many other items that can be added to both lists but I'm pretty certain that for most clubs there won't be much in the way of money left over come the end of the season!

4000 per week at Conference National level = strong relegation candidate but as another poster says indicates at least some form of financial prudence.



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acmold
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Jun 2, 2009, 2:44 PM

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A player at Conference National level (most players are full time) would realistically earn in the region of 500 to 550 per week (2000 to 2500 per month) which is a realistic working weekly wage in this day and age.

How the other half live, 350 gross is a good wage around here.


Geoff
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Jun 2, 2009, 7:34 PM

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Re: [mr creosote] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have heard of several clubs who are setting their wage bill for next season at what they consider to be an affordable level (which I am assuming is what Ebbsfleet are doing) and accept that they may struggle at their current level as a result.
Personally I see this as a positive result of the current difficult economic times.
Am I alone in thinking that this is a better way to run a football club than running up debts in an attempt to move upwards in the hope that taking a financial risk will bring rewards? or are such clubs just lacking ambition?


UKPunk
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Jun 2, 2009, 8:09 PM

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A player at Conference National level (most players are full time) would realistically earn in the region of 500 to 550 per week (2000 to 2500 per month) which is a realistic working weekly wage in this day and age.

How the other half live, 350 gross is a good wage around here.

I'd love to earn half the figures quoted in bold! I'll bet even for a lot of part time players what they earn with their club is worth more than they get in their 'proper' job.



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Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


Richard Rundle
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Jun 2, 2009, 9:08 PM

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A player at Conference National level (most players are full time) would realistically earn in the region of 500 to 550 per week (2000 to 2500 per month) which is a realistic working weekly wage in this day and age.

How the other half live, 350 gross is a good wage around here.


Likewise here in North Devon. 25K is virtually impossible around here.

--
Richard


Mad Bill
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Jun 2, 2009, 10:59 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

UKPunk conveniently overlooks concessions, which I reckon account for about a third of the crowd.
That 18k per week then become nearer 13k per home game. Deduct VAT, and the club comes out with about 11k per home game. (They will, of course, have put the 2K VAT aside so they can pay their VAT bill promptly. Wink)


acmold
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Jun 3, 2009, 10:41 AM

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UKPunk conveniently overlooks concessions, which I reckon account for about a third of the crowd.
That 18k per week then become nearer 13k per home game. Deduct VAT, and the club comes out with about 11k per home game. (They will, of course, have put the 2K VAT aside so they can pay their VAT bill promptly. Wink)



Quick maths, that now makes 275k gate income net after VAT deduction, 168k wages, makes 61% in wages.


MattRamLives
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Jun 3, 2009, 10:51 AM

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Re: [acmold] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Concessions as a precentage are going to rise according to statistics

there are more unemployed

more students

more OAP's sorry Veterans

and the birth rate is going up


pitch 63
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Jun 3, 2009, 12:48 PM

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Re: [acmold] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Two further items that I don't think have been mentioned yet are - Employers' National Insurance [11%] and pension contributions [minimum 3%] - that will add a minimum of 24k to the wage bill.


UKPunk
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Jun 3, 2009, 2:37 PM

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UKPunk conveniently overlooks concessions, which I reckon account for about a third of the crowd.
That 18k per week then become nearer 13k per home game. Deduct VAT, and the club comes out with about 11k per home game. (They will, of course, have put the 2K VAT aside so they can pay their VAT bill promptly. Wink)



Quick maths, that now makes 275k gate income net after VAT deduction, 168k wages, makes 61% in wages.

I only overlooked concessions because I wanted to present my argument in the simplest possible terms. Now that others have produced a more detailed analysis of the sums involved however, it would seem that my original point is considerably strengthened.

On the basis of this discussion I don't see how clubs in the Conference National can operate on a full time basis without struggling to break even, never mind make a profit.



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Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2


JohnD
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Jun 3, 2009, 2:55 PM

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Post #22 of 25 (1272 views)
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Two further items that I don't think have been mentioned yet are - Employers' National Insurance [11%] and pension contributions [minimum 3%] - that will add a minimum of 24k to the wage bill.


Pension contributions? Not compulsory surely?

I know the above calculation are rough but the fact a club gets 1000 through the gate and charges 10 per adult does not mean it takes 10,000 per match. In my experiece the actual takings are likely to be half that once kids/OAPS/Press/League passes/Hangers on are taken into account.


pitch 63
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Jun 3, 2009, 3:05 PM

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Pension contributions are complusory if any player is himself contributing 3% of his gross pay to a pension provider, ie the club must match his payments with a 3% contribution, above that the club does not have match player contributions. From 2012 the new pension contribution law will make significant changes to pension contributions and will have a massive effect on all football clubs who pay players or other staff.


JohnD
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Jun 3, 2009, 3:19 PM

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Re: [pitch 63] Ebbsfleet players budget [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's not in yet though? Looks like it'll be 5 years before the full 3% kicks in. Also for the majority of clubs it shouldn't be an issue as the employee needs to be earning over 5000.

The thing is, if the Club doesn't pay then who brings the claim? Is the player really going to claim agains the club for say 6 a week? Or does HMRC fine the club for not paying?

It's the minimum wage thats a big concern as well.


UKPunk
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Jun 3, 2009, 7:24 PM

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That's not in yet though? Looks like it'll be 5 years before the full 3% kicks in. Also for the majority of clubs it shouldn't be an issue as the employee needs to be earning over 5000.

The thing is, if the Club doesn't pay then who brings the claim? Is the player really going to claim agains the club for say 6 a week? Or does HMRC fine the club for not paying?

It's the minimum wage thats a big concern as well.

And what happens if the club goes bust because they've spent the club silver on players wages? Crazy



1-0-1-0-4-25-40-65-181-289=606

Last game: Mon 20/8/18
4. Basford United 1 Hednesford Town 2

 
 


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