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Blue Square Midlands?

 

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cooksmad
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May 6, 2009, 9:50 PM

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Blue Square Midlands? Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hi,

I had a idea the other day, wouldn't it seem sense to form a Blue Square Midlands, because for example you get teams like Hinckley playing teams like Gateshead and Southport, and in the South clubs like Bishop Stortford going to Dorchester. So with clubs based in the midlands in both the North and South divisions, form a new division.

The teams would be:

Alfreton Town, Bishop Stortford, Corby Town, Eastwood Town, Gainsborough Trinity, Hinckley United, Ilkeston Town, Redditch United, Solihull Moors, Stafford Rangers, Worcester City

plus another 20 from somewhere else?


Richard Rundle
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May 6, 2009, 10:05 PM

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Re: [cooksmad] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Hi,

I had a idea the other day, wouldn't it seem sense to form a Blue Square Midlands, because for example you get teams like Hinckley playing teams like Gateshead and Southport, and in the South clubs like Bishop Stortford going to Dorchester. So with clubs based in the midlands in both the North and South divisions, form a new division.

The teams would be:

Alfreton Town, Bishop Stortford, Corby Town, Eastwood Town, Gainsborough Trinity, Hinckley United, Ilkeston Town, Redditch United, Solihull Moors, Stafford Rangers, Worcester City

plus another 20 from somewhere else?


Another 20? Take the 24 from the Conference National and it may make some sort of sense.

--
Richard


petermiller36
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May 6, 2009, 11:05 PM

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Re: [cooksmad] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are you actually 12 and don't remember 2003/4 and earlier??? We had 3 divisions below the Conference National before.



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


Roman
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May 6, 2009, 11:32 PM

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Are you actually 12 and don't remember 2003/4 and earlier??? We had 3 divisions below the Conference National before.


And two of the leagues covered the south.
A 'Midlands Premier League' should have been formed 20 years ago.


petermiller36
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May 7, 2009, 10:41 AM

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Re: [Roman] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They did indeed. But we're just getting settled with the current shape of the pyramid. Very easy to explain to others. Let's keep it like this (Step 4 and above).



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


ladderman
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May 7, 2009, 12:06 PM

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Re: [cooksmad] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Bishop's Stortford is not, and never will be, in the midlands. It's in the south east, and while being in the Blue Square Midlands would be preferable to being in the Blue Square North, it would still be the wrong league for them.


acmold
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May 7, 2009, 1:43 PM

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Re: [ladderman] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Have we not been through this many times before, there are not enough clubs in the "Midlands" for a Conference Midlands. If we split everything three ways we just end up with the NPL, Sl and IL areas and population splits. The South East / London does less travelling. The north does slightly less travelling and the rest is basically everything between outer London and a line somewhere around Nottingham to Stoke right down to Truro. And in some years you will get teams very close to London in the "middle" Conference section to make the numbers up, or the north using "Midland" clubs to make their numbers up.

If you go on a strict north / middle / south split the southern section would end south of the north of the M25 and clubs in the south west would faces 350 / 400 miles trips to play games. The Midland section would never end up with just clubs 70 or 80 miles from Meridan (used to be classed as the centre of England). For 2008/09 of the 44 Conference north and south clubs just 10 fall within that area and that would include border clubs like Gainsborough and Vauxhall Motors


buncranaboy
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May 7, 2009, 1:49 PM

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Re: [acmold] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

How about a Blue Square Oxford, Andy ? Tongue


acmold
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May 7, 2009, 1:54 PM

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How about a Blue Square Oxford, Andy ? Tongue



I sure if you asked Mr Lee at the Conference he would consider it and then not tell anyone about it.

We could have one league based on Oxford and every club in it would have to come from within 280 miles of Oxford, that would solve everything.

We have some Blue Circle Cement in our local B&Q, for bonded hard walkways.

The only bad game and ground there has ever been in the GNSL (or so I am told) was at Ramblers last week.


mick
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May 7, 2009, 2:22 PM

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Re: [acmold] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A lot of hot air is expended arguing who is in the Midlands, the North, the South, the South East etc, etc. Why not adopt the system used in some other countries - France, Portugal, Netherlands for example - and call the divisions at the same level A, B, C etc. That way the discussions should (he says) focus on how many teams should be at each level and hence how many divisional groups are needed at that level rather that the pointless 'you are in the North/Midlands' ... 'no I'm not' .... 'yes you are' roundabout.

If you decide how many clubs will play at say level 6 (Step 2) you then divide them into the appropriate number of groups be that 2, 3, 4 or whatever. You then fill the levels from the top down, leaving any 'vacancies' at the lowest level. Geography and densisty of population will always mean some clubs will have more travelling than others, no matter how many are at any one level, but this approach should stop the problems of having too many teams in one perceived part of the country and too few in another perceived part.


cooksmad
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May 7, 2009, 5:34 PM

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Re: [petermiller36] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Are you actually 12 and don't remember 2003/4 and earlier??? We had 3 divisions below the Conference National before.



Yes i do. But they were and still are the Southern Prem, Unibond Prem and Ryman Prem, not the Blue Sqaure North and South- they were formed in 2004- if YOUR old enough to remember that.


cooksmad
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May 7, 2009, 5:44 PM

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Re: [petermiller36] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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They did indeed. But we're just getting settled with the current shape of the pyramid. Very easy to explain to others. Let's keep it like this (Step 4 and above).



Peter,

I am in no way trying to pick a fight with you, but if the teams you support has anything to do with where you live then it does work for your part of the country, however for teams in the Midlands it doesn't currently work, yes we do have the step 5 & 6 leagues as well as the midland divisions in both the Unibond and Southern leagues at step 4 but apart from that, if a club from say Northamptonshire was promoted from step 4, they'd be in the Southern Prem and despite the exceptions of teams such as Rugby, Halesowen, Stourbridge and now Leamington...etc, they'd have to make a 2 hour journey every other week to go to teams based in Gloucestershire and also even further journeys to Tiverton Town, i used to support Corby Town and i made these journey's--- they simply didn't work, and i'm glad for the steelmen's sake they've gone up as they would have also had to have gone to Truro City next season as well as Tivvy.
Blue sq north is a whole lot better for midlands clubs when it comes down to travelling, however there are a lot of journey's to Manchester and beyond, i'm sure Peter if you supported a team in the Blue Square North say Telford, you would not like to go upto Blyth Spartarns on a cold Tuesday night, and not getting home until the early hours of the following day, no better if it's a Saturday afternoon either, as you'd probably get home at 10pm at the earliest.

Yes it was complicated back in 2004, when the Blue Square North and South were being formed, but above step 4 non-league football is probably better for clubs in the South of the country when it comes to travelling rather than in the West and East midlands.


(This post was edited by cooksmad on May 7, 2009, 5:46 PM)


Richard Rundle
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May 7, 2009, 6:02 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Are you actually 12 and don't remember 2003/4 and earlier??? We had 3 divisions below the Conference National before.



Yes i do. But they were and still are the Southern Prem, Unibond Prem and Ryman Prem, not the Blue Sqaure North and South- they were formed in 2004- if YOUR old enough to remember that.



What difference does it make what they are/were called?

I'm certainly not in favour of elevating any more teams to "Step 2".

--
Richard


ladderman
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May 7, 2009, 6:15 PM

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Re: [mick] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You can call the divisions what you like. the fact is it's madness that a team based in basically a london commuter town could be in Conference North next while Thurrock (a great example that changing names doesn't make a blind bit of difference) will remain in BSS despite having finished in a relegation place.


[email protected]
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May 7, 2009, 7:01 PM

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Re: [ladderman] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Worcester City FC have a board meting tonight to consider their options, in line with prior agreement. The League want to know so they can plan.

Tony's maps show that if we choose to stay in CS, there is a rather bizarre situation of possibly Gloucester travelling past. But such anomalies are to be expected, when an option to stay for 3 years is granted.

Personally, I think the timetable for decision is a day too early. Gateshead or AFC Telford could be an important factor in any decision on returning to north.

Also its a slightly insidious position that if we stay or go, we are likely to lose a fixture against a local Club, in Gloucester, as they will go where we dont. A shame as such local fixtures are generally in short supply anyway.

I'm not one for pretty pyramid patterns over realism.

There are other factors involved, but since 5 years ago, Stafford have been on the verge as have Worcester and Redditch (all this season) Moor Green no longer exist, and nor do Nuneaton Borough.

Personally, I would reflect recessionary times with a 3 league Step 2 next year. Perhaps 12 in the CM,
and sixteen in the CS and CS. With differing numbers, Clubs can choose where they want to play. They can choose if they play eachother 3 times or 4 times, with different decision in different leagues. Who really cares. More games, hopefully bigger gates, shorter time to travel to away games. Midweek away games an hour away not 5. Should also avoid player wage cuts. Club survival and providing opportunities to play is paramount in my mind, in my opinion, not nice shapes.

Some might say Clubs have always gone bust, which is hard to argue with, so why not just let it happen.

Can keep one play-off place by top 8 among the three (2nd + 3rd) plus next best two on a points per game basis. Doubt many would mind travel for a play-off.


petermiller36
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May 7, 2009, 7:03 PM

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Re: [cooksmad] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
They did indeed. But we're just getting settled with the current shape of the pyramid. Very easy to explain to others. Let's keep it like this (Step 4 and above).



Peter,

I am in no way trying to pick a fight with you, but if the teams you support has anything to do with where you live then it does work for your part of the country, however for teams in the Midlands it doesn't currently work, yes we do have the step 5 & 6 leagues as well as the midland divisions in both the Unibond and Southern leagues at step 4 but apart from that, if a club from say Northamptonshire was promoted from step 4, they'd be in the Southern Prem and despite the exceptions of teams such as Rugby, Halesowen, Stourbridge and now Leamington...etc, they'd have to make a 2 hour journey every other week to go to teams based in Gloucestershire and also even further journeys to Tiverton Town, i used to support Corby Town and i made these journey's--- they simply didn't work, and i'm glad for the steelmen's sake they've gone up as they would have also had to have gone to Truro City next season as well as Tivvy.
Blue sq north is a whole lot better for midlands clubs when it comes down to travelling, however there are a lot of journey's to Manchester and beyond, i'm sure Peter if you supported a team in the Blue Square North say Telford, you would not like to go upto Blyth Spartarns on a cold Tuesday night, and not getting home until the early hours of the following day, no better if it's a Saturday afternoon either, as you'd probably get home at 10pm at the earliest.

Yes it was complicated back in 2004, when the Blue Square North and South were being formed, but above step 4 non-league football is probably better for clubs in the South of the country when it comes to travelling rather than in the West and East midlands.



Cooksmad. I don't live down south. I live in Birmingham, so in actual fact I'm probably best placed to understand the sympathies of teams in the Midlands. I have been to many grounds in the Midlands since moving here in September and have had some great chats with local folks about generic stuff but also travelling.

Ware are in a very fortunate position in that their Step 4 league has always had the lowest combined travelling out of all of them since the 2004 reshuffle. The idea of going down to Truro City as a Step 4 side scared me quite a lot.

But the fact of the matter is that this system works a lot better than it did pre-2004. It doesn't matter what you label the 3 divisions below the BSP you have proposed, whether it is Ryman et al, or BS Midlands et al.



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


Mad Bill
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May 11, 2009, 12:37 PM

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Re: [petermiller36] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Perhaps, when the new site is up, running and bedded in, a map could be produced showing how step 2 would look with a Midlands division consisting of the clubs left over after the 22 nearest the Scottish border and the 22 nearest the south coast have been removed.
People proposing a BSMid don't realise that neither the population of England nor the geographical spread of clubs at a given level is evenly distributed.
Reference to such a map would either silence those who regularly pop up with this wonderful idea that only they can see the sense in, or else it'll provoke some debate and tweaking, and we'll have a fun thread to run with.


(This post was edited by Mad Bill on May 11, 2009, 12:39 PM)


MTC
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May 11, 2009, 2:35 PM

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Perhaps, when the new site is up, running and bedded in, a map could be produced showing how step 2 would look with a Midlands division consisting of the clubs left over after the 22 nearest the Scottish border and the 22 nearest the south coast have been removed.
People proposing a BSMid don't realise that neither the population of England nor the geographical spread of clubs at a given level is evenly distributed.
Reference to such a map would either silence those who regularly pop up with this wonderful idea that only they can see the sense in, or else it'll provoke some debate and tweaking, and we'll have a fun thread to run with.

Why wait for the new site? Iíve just created such a map.

This map includes all 44 of next seasonís Step 2 clubs, as well as the 5 relegated from step 2 at the end of this season (that includes Kingís Lynn and not Team Bath), and the 17 best non-promoted clubs from step 3 this season based on points per game. 66 clubs in total.

Click here to see the map.


Dovecote
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May 11, 2009, 3:05 PM

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Re: [MTC] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

May I be the first to offer the citizens of Bath a heartfelt welcome to the Midlands. Alreet me ducks?


vienna1964
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Why wait for the new site? Iíve just created such a map.

This map includes all 44 of next seasonís Step 2 clubs, as well as the 5 relegated from step 2 at the end of this season (that includes Kingís Lynn and not Team Bath), and the 17 best non-promoted clubs from step 3 this season based on points per game. 66 clubs in total.

Click here to see the map.


Hmmm ! That's actually really interesting. It does sort-of fit on a purely geographical basis; reminding me very much of the Old Southern League North & South Divisions; but is clearly not supporting any 'ease of transport' factor which should be included within one's calculations for this sort of thing... if one is attempting to be practical, at least !

However, having said this, it does appear that this particular 'grouping' is not far removed from being a 'perfect fit' for even those conditions to be met with I'd only be inclined to make the three changes from this pattern for 'absolute perfection' - Dorchester, Weymouth & Weston clearly requiring to be in that 'Midland' Division, whilst three other sides swap with them into the 'South' Division.

It would be most edifying to repeat this experiment with the constitutions that would have been appropriate (say) had the Alliance Premier League (Conference) never been founded back in 1979 and the four divisions which initially fed that competition (OK, I know no one entered from the Isthmian for two more years !) - ILP, NPLP, SM & SS - were instead created at that time from the original three.
Seeing that it is completely 'a flight of fancy', one may even later consider repeating this task whilst including the NL (which at that time was equivalent to the ILP); obviously finding some reasonable way of including those teams in later years by assuming that their League had not dropped down the Steps as HAS occured ! One might assume that in the completely 'different history' this would reflect, that ground grading issues were all 'sorted', but that any enforced demotions, bankruptcies, etc. still stood.

The latter two ideas were to be my 'Summer project', alongside the reworking of the NL Prediction League workings and rule-changes... but with the palaver of founding the new site they have all headed to the back-burner !



I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY TO EACH AND EVERY PERSON ON THIS FORUM WHO HAS FELT LET-DOWN BY MY INIMICABLE AND DEPLORABLE BEHAVIOUR OF OCTOBER 28th. 2009. ESPECIALLY TO BRIAN, WHO IS A MARVELLOUS GENTLEMAN AND IS THE LAST PERSON HERE WHO SHOULD HAVE TO PUT UP WITH SUCH UNDESERVED PERSONAL CHARACTER-ASSASSINATION. LET IT BE KNOWN THAT A PRIVATE PERSONAL APOLOGY WAS SENT, BUT WAS SEEN INSUFFICIENT. FAIR ENOUGH.


acmold
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May 11, 2009, 5:19 PM

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Re: [vienna1964] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Taking the Wash - Severn line and presuming the middle point is somewhere around Banbury / Northampton / Leamington there appears to be 34 clubs below that point and 32 above, in a ideal world 33 each side but that would hardly evey happen. Where Oxfordshire, Warwickshire and Northamptonshire meet is more or less the Landmass centre of England

Does this give more or less traveling than the other way around with the bottom two sections of clubs being arranged East - West ?.


Mad Bill
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May 11, 2009, 6:58 PM

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Re: [acmold] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The point I was making was that cooksmad and the others who make this regular suggestion aren't aware of how the result would look.
Can I ask cooksmad if he's happy for Chelmsford and Bath to be is his proposed Midland division, or did he only expect 'true' midland clubs there?


Roman
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May 11, 2009, 7:16 PM

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In Reply To
The point I was making was that cooksmad and the others who make this regular suggestion aren't aware of how the result would look.
Can I ask cooksmad if he's happy for Chelmsford and Bath to be is his proposed Midland division, or did he only expect 'true' midland clubs there?


Well they would both be in an existing Southern division together so what's the difference?


Grecian
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May 11, 2009, 8:04 PM

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Re: [cooksmad] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem with all these suggestions for new leagues (e.g. a conference Midlands at step 2 or a 4th, midlands-based league at step 3) - and I've made many enough myself over the years - is that you're always going to end up with teams on the boundaries between leagues who'll be swapping between one or the other every season - unless you have fixed league boundaires, but then you have to have a way of accommodating any imbalance in the geographic spread of the teams being promoted and relegated into and out of each level, i.e. by not having fixed league sizes.

I'm now beginning to think the current 1,2,3,6 is a good set up, giving a fair amount of promotion opportunities and reducing bottle necks - the improvement (if required) to reduce very long journeys at lower steps would be to start regionalisation at a higher level.

Perhaps the only benefit of replacing the 1-3-x (of steps 1, 2 and 3 prior to the conference regionals) with a 1-3-3(?) where steps 1 and 2 are administered by the conference is that they'll be less concerned about preserving footprints (as could be said to be the case with the IL) but this would just shunt the problem down a step and require a new combination of leagues at step 3.


vienna1964
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May 11, 2009, 11:29 PM

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Re: [Grecian] Blue Square Midlands? [In reply to] Can't Post or

There IS one way of levelling the playing field for 'boundary teams' and that is to ensure that all boundaries are altered by similar amounts each and every season. I'll explain...

Firstly, the number of teams at each Step would need to be divided into two to four different splits as appropriate. In alternating seasons, different splits are chosen so that a boundary team in an even-numbered season may be guaranteed to be a centrally-placed team in an odd season - within the same Step.
Obviously, teams moving from Step to Step would not necessarily enjoy this benefit each time they moved... but probability dictates that every team should enjoy an equal number of 'border' as 'central' seasons over time, come whatever else may.

This idea would not work purely in the way that (say) sectors of a wheel might move around the wheel's hub - but this remains a useful allusion and could work reasonably representatively at Step 2 for sure. Season 1 and every 2nd. season thereafter would take a N/S split, whilst Season 2 and remaining seasons would take an E/W split.
So far so good. It parts company a bit with the 'wheel' comparison from Step 3 and ever so more downward, yet the principle remains the same. It's just the size of the sectors utilised become smaller and smaller (as footprints do as you go down the levels) and instead of a point-hub, it would become necessary to create a line-hub of increasing complexity as we drop down the Steps, yet nevertheless relatively simple to work with.
At certain levels, there may effectively be more than one hub (a divided hub per se) for practical purposes... it won't matter too much; any hub would serve only as a 'line of absolute separation' between teams who would never be pooled together in any of the regulation splits; -or- even, hubs themselves might 'cycle' back and forth over a prescribed timeframe, again for practicality.

You can imagine this; bear with this; by considering an old fashioned western stagecoach wheel... if you 'morph' that picture in your mind with the map of the country, there comes a midway point recognisably England, yet divided up by the spokes. Step 2 would be a four-spoke wheel and season by season the spokes would turn by 45 degrees; Step 3 would be a six-spoke wheel, changing by 30 degrees per season; Step 4 likewise 12-spokes & 15 degrees and so on, remembering that it may be necessary to 'tease-out' the hub itself from a point to a line of reasonable shape in order to facilitate things as larger numbers of divisions are required.



I APOLOGISE UNRESERVEDLY TO EACH AND EVERY PERSON ON THIS FORUM WHO HAS FELT LET-DOWN BY MY INIMICABLE AND DEPLORABLE BEHAVIOUR OF OCTOBER 28th. 2009. ESPECIALLY TO BRIAN, WHO IS A MARVELLOUS GENTLEMAN AND IS THE LAST PERSON HERE WHO SHOULD HAVE TO PUT UP WITH SUCH UNDESERVED PERSONAL CHARACTER-ASSASSINATION. LET IT BE KNOWN THAT A PRIVATE PERSONAL APOLOGY WAS SENT, BUT WAS SEEN INSUFFICIENT. FAIR ENOUGH.

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