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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Winchester docked 3 points

 

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megahorn
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Apr 25, 2009, 7:41 PM

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Winchester docked 3 points Can't Post or Reply Privately

Win City have been docked 3 points for playing an ineligible player. Believed to be Jon Docker who Shaun Brooks brought in shortly after his arrival. Apparently he was already registered with Hitchin Town - presume therefore that he would have had to be transferred rather than just signed. Win City likely to appeal however.


Boner
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Apr 25, 2009, 8:38 PM

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Re: [megahorn] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can confirm that we are going to appeal to the highest posible commitee about this so as they say watch this space ........



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Terrierdave
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Apr 25, 2009, 10:18 PM

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Re: [Boner] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Simple question - was he eligible to play under the prevailing rules?


Sarumio
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Apr 26, 2009, 4:23 PM

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Re: [Terrierdave] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I can imagine Winchester City will fight this to the death! The deductions lands them bottom and relegated. It reprieves Taunton Town and almost certainly reprieves Bracknell Town too (as not enough Step 5 applicants coming up and they have the 2nd best PPG after Chipstead).

Interesting how this one develops.


TC of Berks
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Apr 27, 2009, 11:47 AM

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Re: [Boner] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As a victim of this earlier in the season, albeit for different reasons, we were rightly chucked out of the FA Cup.

What are the circumstances surrounding this fella? If he was also registered for another side in the same league system, surely that is that?



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splodge
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Apr 27, 2009, 11:51 AM

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Re: [TC of Berks] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not too sure if the player is registered elsewhere or registered too late, but if he is, 2 mistakes of this magnitude in the same season beggars belief.

After the fiasco that was the Southampton Senior Cup this season, you'd have expected every i to be dotted and every T to be crossed on any new players signed on.



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megahorn
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Apr 27, 2009, 1:05 PM

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Re: [TC of Berks] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As per my previous post my understanding is that player concerned was already registered with Hitchin Town although he had not played for them. The correct process would be a 7 day approach and then a transfer to Win City - this I believe was not carried out. Win City claim that he was cleared to play by the FA - this only means that he is not suspended for any reason - they have no records regarding players registrations. Registration of players with clubs is the remit of the League Registration Secretary who City should have also checked with prior to signing player. Unfortunately all the buck stops with the Registration Secretary of the club. Presumably the League picked up on it when the registration form arrived in the post. Doubt that any appeal would be successful although who can tell these days.


TC of Berks
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Apr 27, 2009, 1:19 PM

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Re: [megahorn] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That makes me feel a little better...

As I say though, we haven't been good enough through the season, but if what is said is the case, then the deduction should stand.



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monte
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Apr 27, 2009, 9:44 PM

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Re: [TC of Berks] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My understanding is you are allowed to have players on a dual registration IE provided they are not playing in the same league they can play for either club. The problem comes here where the inellible player was already registered to another club in the same league.

I also understand that if you are allowed access to the Members Area of the BGB League (generally only club chairmen and secretaries) you can view your own player registrations but NOT other clubs. This raises the question of why not? Surely a simple name search would assist the process? I am not suggesting it is fool proof but surely is a simple enough system that just might have put someone on warning? I cannot see that this would impinge on anyones privacy!

It is very easy in these circumstances to blame the club secretary but unless you have been involved in the running of a club at this level I doubt you can fully appreciate the amount of work involved and it is very easy for something like this to happen particularly when under pressure from a manager to get players available.

Of course this wouldn't have helped Bracknell who I believe fell foul of the internation clearance rules when signing a player already registered in Wales.


BrakesBrother
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Apr 27, 2009, 10:47 PM

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Re: [monte] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

on the BGB website member page you can do a name search to see if a player is registered with any other club in that league. it will tell you what club and if the player is contract, non contract or loan, it will even tell you if it expired or if its been cancelled or not.
It IS pretty much foolproof.
If you can't use the internet there is the phone, it's not difficult.
Apologies but I have no sypmathy for people not doing checks to make sure a player can be signed,or once done, to make sure the player is duly registered and able to play.
I know our secretary does it, so why can't other clubs?
Oh and as you probably already know. You cannot sign dual forms with another club in the same league. Only cross leagues can it be done.


(This post was edited by BrakesBrother on Apr 27, 2009, 10:51 PM)


megahorn
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Apr 27, 2009, 10:59 PM

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Re: [BrakesBrother] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Following just posted on Win Citys alternative forum ( remember that management closed their official forum and were going to re-open it but make people pay to use it ).

City completed a magnificent end of season run with a well fought draw at home to Paulton Rovers on Wednesday 18th March and a tremendous
4-2 win away to second-placed Windsor and Eton on Saturday 25th April moving out of the relegation positions. Unfortunately the Club was
hit with a three point deduction on Friday evening and a swinging fine of £1,300 for playing an ineligible player, John Docker, in two
matches. This puts them back to the bottom of the league and into relegation.

Secretary John Moody said that the Club is appealing the fine and points deduction to the Football Association because Docker was signed
in the proper manner and given a registration number by the Southern League which enabled him to play in these games. It took the League’s
administration system nearly two weeks to discover that Docker had also signed for Hitchin also in the same League. Docker had never
played for Hitchin and subsequently it has been discovered that it was an Hitchin official who signed the form on Docker’s behalf and
therefore he was never correctly registered as their player Unfortunately it has also been established that Docker also never signed City’
s form but his father did so unbeknown to the Club.
It was this form that was originally accepted by the League.

Mr Moody commented, ‘we submitted the form in good faith, Mr Docker had not declared on it that he had signed for Hitchin and under the
circumstances there was no need to do so but did declare the other clubs for which he had played for in the correct manner. The League let
us down as an early check on the form could have prevented him playing at all and to add injury to insult fined us an inordinate amount of
money and relegated us!

Seems to me that this gets better and better as more info comes to light !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


TC of Berks
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Apr 28, 2009, 8:12 AM

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Re: [monte] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

"Of course this wouldn't have helped Bracknell who I believe fell foul of the internation clearance rules when signing a player already registered in Wales."

As I said earlier, we were caught out by this earlier in the season, we rightly thrown out of the FA Cup (thats the rules - whether I think its harsh or not is another matter) and lost the prize money.

What our secretary did then was put in a series of steps to make sure something like this didn't happen again.

Unfortunately, as has been previously stated, it is largely down to the player, and somewhat unfair that the club gets punished. BUT, they are the rules! I am not sure what to make of the rest of it... his Dad signing the form etc...

Surely proof of signature is required? It seems like a bit of a circus down there if you ask me!!



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TB&G
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Apr 28, 2009, 4:53 PM

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Re: [TC of Berks] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Don't know if this has been suggested before but isn't the answer to the problem of so called "illegal" registrations the issuing of a 'Player's Passport' at the start of each new season if the player in question isn't contracted on a multi season basis.

Every player's details state the club/s he signs for and every cup he plays in throughout the season together with any match/period bans he gets and these details are countersigned by the registration secretary of the club/s in question at the time of transfer if it occurs.


megahorn
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Apr 28, 2009, 5:55 PM

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Re: [TC of Berks] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Another interesting point about this fiasco is that apparently the player in question played 3 games for City before being suspended. The first was against Truro which they lost then Abingdon and Cinderford which they won. The question has to be asked therefore why only a 3 point deduction ? If he hasnt signed either form ( for Hitchin or Winchester ) then its a fairly straightforward case as far as I can see. He wasnt a registered player for either club. Therefore he would be an ineligible player.


casualobserver
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Apr 29, 2009, 3:04 AM

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Re: [megahorn] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If that's the case, then shouldn't Hitchin also be docked points?


Tivvy_Al
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Apr 29, 2009, 5:39 AM

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Re: [casualobserver] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or

No, as he never played for Hitchin.



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StokePriorAndy
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Apr 29, 2009, 9:00 AM

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Re: [Tivvy_Al] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Aren't we getting away from the FA Charge here which doesn't seem to relate directly to who signed the form at Winchester but the fact he was registered already at Hitchin. If what BrakesBrother says is correct how come Winchester didn't pick this up when they checked out his registration? You could also say "how come the SL didn't pick it up sooner" but the league will always lay responsibility with the club and this should have been avoided by a simple check of the website IMO.


acmold
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Apr 29, 2009, 9:26 AM

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Re: [StokePriorAndy] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or

I seem to recall Abingdon Town were docked three points by the Isthmian League a few years ago because they registered a player by fax and when the hard copy turned up in the post the signature varied from the one on the faxed form, the club were docked 3 points.


casualobserver
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Apr 29, 2009, 10:15 AM

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Re: [Tivvy_Al] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
No, as he never played for Hitchin.


My apologies, I missed that bit. Blush


roy142857
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May 1, 2009, 11:29 AM

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Re: [casualobserver] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
No, as he never played for Hitchin.


My apologies, I missed that bit. Blush


Although they can't be deducted points for playing an ineligible player, if it's really true that a Hitchin official signed a form instead of a player doing so himself, then surely Hitchin should be penalised in some way? I rather think this is the more serious offence.

I do wonder what the situation was - did the player verbally agree to sign then change his mind? Or did he actually tell the HItchin official to sign on his behalf? Anyone know what is done if a player is very illiterate and unable to sign their own name? (Not saying that's the case here, just wondering - although such an extreme isn't common, it must still happen sometimes, and in this case we have two occasions when the player himself hasn't signed a form).

Regarding Winchester, the situation then becomes a little oddball, as can they be fined/have points deducted if it's determined the player never was signed by Hitchin?

Also wondering (just generally) what happens if a team Secretary calls a league, is told the player is not signed to anyone else (perhaps because a form hasn't arrived from another club, or perhaps simply an error by the league official)? Could that be what happened to Winchester in this case?


SuperKev!
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May 1, 2009, 11:56 AM

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Re: [roy142857] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Regarding Winchester, the situation then becomes a little oddball, as can they be fined/have points deducted if it's determined the player never was signed by Hitchin?

No, they can't as the registration with Hitchin would be null and void. However, the player didn't sign the form at Winchester either so was still playing illegally. The only defence, as you touched on, is if the player cannot write. However, I should imagine in such a case (and this is just a guess) that the player would have to make his "mark" on the form which would then need to be witnessed by somebody else.


SuperKev!
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May 1, 2009, 12:02 PM

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Re: [roy142857] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Also wondering (just generally) what happens if a team Secretary calls a league, is told the player is not signed to anyone else (perhaps because a form hasn't arrived from another club, or perhaps simply an error by the league official)? Could that be what happened to Winchester in this case?


I wouldn't imagine that's what happened in this case but that scenario in itself is a bit of a grey area. I would suspect that no action would be taken against the club as they would be deemed to have taken reasonable measures to confirm the player's eligibility, but the player himself would face sanctions for not declaring the previous registration.


roy142857
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May 1, 2009, 2:00 PM

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Re: [SuperKev!] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
No, they can't as the registration with Hitchin would be null and void. However, the player didn't sign the form at Winchester either so was still playing illegally. The only defence, as you touched on, is if the player cannot write.


Thanks for the responses!

Perhaps there is another 'defense' for Winchester, as they may not have known it was the players father who had signed the form rather than the player himself ...

(An aside: Can't believe in this day and age they can't find some better way than this ...Unsure)


SuperKev!
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Re: [roy142857] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Technically, the whole form is supposed to be completed in one go. Therefore, the club official who signs the form will logically be present at the time the player signs it.


davidf
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May 5, 2009, 3:31 PM

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Re: [megahorn] Winchester docked 3 points [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

When exactly is Winchester's appeal?



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