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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
apex more problematic than base ?

 



broodleyhoo
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Apr 21, 2009, 7:25 PM

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apex more problematic than base ? Can't Post or Reply Privately

I know this is basically a "non league" board, but I find as much pleasure in watching Selby as Sunderland, Tooting as Tottenham. To me the biggest need for restructure is at the top of English football.

To expand. The "championship" is a fine division - in the sense that results are grossly unpredictable, competition intense and so you turn up to a game really not knowing what to expect.

But then, perversely, if you win that league, the prize on the pitch is.....endless struggle with no prospect of any further success.

I mean, what is the point of being Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn etc. The best you can hope for is mid-table mediocrity, the chance occasionally to embarass the big boys, relegation when the inevitable bad patch comes, and a crippling wage bill to pay the nonetities you've paid a king's ransom to employ.

It's time the top 4 took the step they really want to, and helped to form a proper Euro league. Then they can enjoy that stratospheric level of football, whilst other clubs currently trapped in the Prem might actually sniff success. I don't begrudge the top 4 their dominance, nor quail at the questionable financial means employed to achieve this. However achieved, it's clear the gap is too big, the drawbridge is up, never to be lowered again. Let's acknowledge this, and move on.

In passing, has anyone calculated a Prem table without the big 4's games? On that basis, who would be "best of the rest?"

OK back to the step 5 ground grade discussion postings......(love themm too!!)


Mr. T
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Apr 21, 2009, 7:55 PM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You could make a similar argument for the Conference and the world below it.


cope1
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Apr 21, 2009, 11:45 PM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Like it says on the tin, this about non-league restructuring so I don't really want to get into it but as a gooner I have no desire to see the top 4 split and join a Euro League. I think the current system needs to be changed to stop them being so far ahead.

Non-league footie - especially AFA footie - is where my heart lies in terms of giving a shit as a neutral as it's almost always open and unpredictable. I also like the fact there is much more to it than the football which doesn't involve managers' opinions.


VP
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Apr 22, 2009, 12:15 AM

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Re: [cope1] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My view is that if the top four, or any other number of teams in the Premiership want to be part of a European League let them get on with it and let the rest of us get on with our football.
I haven't got a clue about what's going on in the Premiership or European competitions as it doesn't interest me.
I'm not just saying that to try to be right on. I actually proved it to myself the other week when watching the highlights of Chelsea v Liverpool in the Champions League (I was just channel hopping and decided to watch it as there was nothing else on).
For a start I didn't know they'd already played the first leg of the game and, secondly, I didn't even know they were still in the competition and had drawn each other.
In a self-satisfying way I'm pleased that I really don't know what's going on above League 2 and I'm only interested in that as I've got a soft spot for the Mighty 'Dale and Aldershot are in it.
It helps by not reading the papers and hardly watching any TV.
See also 'celebrities'. They don't interest me and I have no idea who most of them are.


(This post was edited by VP on Apr 22, 2009, 12:18 AM)


vienna1964
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Apr 22, 2009, 1:47 AM

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Re: [VP] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or

The Bolton Wanderers Chair has this week suggested that the Premiership be split into two Divisions and be increased to 36 teams, including Scotland's Auld Firm.

Interesting to note this has come from 'South of the border' and UEFA are taking it sufficiently seriously as to issue an 'It's up to the individual national FA's what they can do with this idea' type statement. Apparently they claim to have 'no position' on the issue.

Presumably the @Premiership Two' would be open for others of our Scots brethren to apply for... I'd heard Motherwell expressing serious interest, should the arrangements be suitable... then there's no doubt that teams in Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh would also likely seek entry.



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broodleyhoo
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Apr 22, 2009, 7:41 AM

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Re: [VP] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't like celebrity culture or TV much either.

Can't agree with cope's point about "just reform the system". It's gone too far - at least 2 of the top 4 are technically bankrupt, and too many other clubs have bankrupted themselves trying to follow in their footsteps.
It's clear that the top 4 have out-evolved the system. There's little or no link to their locality in their playing or managerial staff, and their game pricing and squad selection shows where their interest lies.

I know it's a NL board, and as I say, I enjoy Conference to step 6 footy too. But I started this thread as many of the "NL" postings are about the perceived injustices of the system at a lower level - yet it seemed ironic to ignore what seems to be the largest inconsistency and injustice of all - the dulling fate that awaits those that succeed in possibly the most thrilling league.


acmold
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Apr 22, 2009, 9:16 AM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or

Have a 10 team British League playing each other 4 times (36 games), 7 clubs from the Premiership and three from Scotland, relegate two each season and replace them with the champions of the English and Scottish Leagues. I presume in most (all ?) seasons, the top six may well be four from England and two from Scotland, the bottom 4 being 3 English teams who could take it in turns to be relegated and replaced by other teams who in turn would be relegated and a Scottish team who would be relegated and replaced by another Scottish who would then be relegated.

All games (5 each weekend) could be shown live on Sky and Setanta, they could play games where ever they like and when ever they like and fit in all their European and Touring games to suit.


leohoenig
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:03 AM

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Re: [vienna1964] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Bolton Wanderers Chair has this week suggested that the Premiership be split into two Divisions and be increased to 36 teams, including Scotland's Auld Firm.

Interesting to note this has come from 'South of the border' and UEFA are taking it sufficiently seriously as to issue an 'It's up to the individual national FA's what they can do with this idea' type statement. Apparently they claim to have 'no position' on the issue.

Presumably the @Premiership Two' would be open for others of our Scots brethren to apply for... I'd heard Motherwell expressing serious interest, should the arrangements be suitable... then there's no doubt that teams in Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh would also likely seek entry.


This type of idea may happen, although I doubt if the UK would be the first to embrace it. With the Scottish and Welsh FAs in particular so uptight about maintaining their independent status, I cannot see them sanctioning their teams joining a "British Premiership".

Belgium and the Netherlands have recently denied there are any plans to merge their national leagues into a Benelux Premier League.

However, there are conditions that have to be stuck to. FIFA has ruled (and the ruling was intended especially for new leagues such as this) that there has to be a meritocracy - this means there must be promotion and relegation. [Existing leagues such as Singapore, USA and Australia are exempt from the ruling]. ANd while UEFA may be neutral to the idea, they will act on it. If the rest of the Scottish league starts thinking of European places for a Scottish Champion from a field that does not include Rangers and Celtic, then they can forget it.

The most likely is that the British Premiership will be a single entity for UEFA, with England and Scotland (and Wales too, if they are not careful) getting only a single other place in Europe - for the National cup winners.



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Veteran
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:20 AM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or

It's not as easy as just letting the "Big and Greedy" 4 go off to a European League. They will doubtless flex thier muscles (they say jump and the FA does) and insist on retaining a presence in the higher echelons of domestic football e. g. by fielding a reserve team. And with their penchant for mucking about with who plays when you can see them fielding a full first team in domestic matches when it suits them and just completely devauluing that competition, unless strictly separate registration rules are applied.

Just a shame the credit crunch hasn't resulted in the demise of any (or preferably all) of them ....


ladderman
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:33 AM

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Quote
If the rest of the Scottish league starts thinking of European places for a Scottish Champion from a field that does not include Rangers and Celtic, then they can forget it.


Yet that exact situation exists in Wales.
I'd agree with your last point though.


Casual-Corinth
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Apr 22, 2009, 11:00 AM

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Re: [acmold] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Have a 10 team British League playing each other 4 times (36 games), 7 clubs from the Premiership and three from Scotland, relegate two each season and replace them with the champions of the English and Scottish Leagues. I presume in most (all ?) seasons, the top six may well be four from England and two from Scotland, the bottom 4 being 3 English teams who could take it in turns to be relegated and replaced by other teams who in turn would be relegated and a Scottish team who would be relegated and replaced by another Scottish who would then be relegated.

All games (5 each weekend) could be shown live on Sky and Setanta, they could play games where ever they like and when ever they like and fit in all their European and Touring games to suit.



If there was to be a British League then there should be teams from Wales and Northern Ireland in it, at present they could not compete but give them the benefit of regular games against the big clubs and they would soon attract the sponsorship and crowds and become competitive.



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dengel3000
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Apr 22, 2009, 11:22 AM

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Re: [vienna1964] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

the premier league division 2 idea made me laugh actually. the grabbing of rangers and celtic, which i would oppose anyway, aside, this is just a smokescreen for a power grab by the premier league to me. i saw mr gartside say that one of the drivers behind this is to spread the money around more to reduce the gap between the first two levels of english football. of course, the ever-benevolent premier league clubs could actually do this anyway by agreeing a deal on allocation of monies with the football league, but what are the chances of that? nothing stated justifies the premier league expanding to 2 divisions. not that that means it can't happen, but i very much doubt that it will happen as currently proposed, with teams voting to relegate themselves and reducing their television income.

the one intriguing aspect for me though, is that the plan has 34 english and welsh premier league teams rather than 20. could this mean 14 conference teams joining the league, because i doubt the football league would want to remove 10 of their own? and naturally, a SIXTH national division?


AndyE
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Apr 22, 2009, 12:23 PM

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In Reply To
In passing, has anyone calculated a Prem table without the big 4's games? On that basis, who would be "best of the rest?"


If we look at last season, it would have been Everton - who came fifth in any case. Aston Villa and Blackburn were the next two, and did in any case come sixth and seventh. What's more, the three relegated clubs would have been the same three that they actually were.

The club which took most points off the Big Four was Manchester City with 7, very much helped by beating Manchester United twice, although Blackburn and Portsmouth were the only two clubs to take at least one point off all four of them.


MattRamLives
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Apr 22, 2009, 1:31 PM

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Re: [acmold] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Have a 10 team British League playing each other 4 times (36 games), 7 clubs from the Premiership and three from Scotland, relegate two each season and replace them with the champions of the English and Scottish Leagues. I presume in most (all ?) seasons, the top six may well be four from England and two from Scotland, the bottom 4 being 3 English teams who could take it in turns to be relegated and replaced by other teams who in turn would be relegated and a Scottish team who would be relegated and replaced by another Scottish who would then be relegated.

All games (5 each weekend) could be shown live on Sky and Setanta, they could play games where ever they like and when ever they like and fit in all their European and Touring games to suit.



Could we have a phone vote each Saturday and vote one of them out?


cope1
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Apr 22, 2009, 4:58 PM

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It's not as easy as just letting the "Big and Greedy" 4 go off to a European League. They will doubtless flex thier muscles (they say jump and the FA does) and insist on retaining a presence in the higher echelons of domestic football e. g. by fielding a reserve team. And with their penchant for mucking about with who plays when you can see them fielding a full first team in domestic matches when it suits them and just completely devauluing that competition, unless strictly separate registration rules are applied.

Just a shame the credit crunch hasn't resulted in the demise of any (or preferably all) of them ....


The "Big and Greedy" 4 are no more greedy than the rest. They just came good at the right time which had the advantage for them of propelling them ahead of the rest. The interesting thing about all conversations on this board is that everyone thinks the teams just above them are greedy and selfish. So that makes more or less all clubs greedy and selfish. I don't like the Chelsea model because it involves a benefactor throwing money in and pushing a club above what it (probably) would otherwise have been. As stated before, the other three have been at the top for decades and can rightfully claim that they have earnt their place there by decade after decade of good management and results.

Lower down the leagues, well beyond the Premier and Football Leagues, there are also clubs funded by benefactors who are lifted above their station but once the conversation turns to the Big 4 they are all forgiven. This is just hypocrisy. It comes through in other ways too such as the support shown to Hoffenheim in Germany. The 'fairy tale' club who had the nerve to challenge the mighty Bayern were everyone's second team for a while. Forget the fact that Hoffenheim are another club pushed up the pyramid by money which far outweighs their support and that Bayern are again an example of a club being run well for decades to the point that they have grown to dwarf most others.

I am not just ranting to defend my own interests as an Arsenal fan but because I get quite sick and tired of the fact that people take this easy way out of just blaming the Big 4 (or whoever else happens to be at the top, depending on the situation). Everton, Newcastle, Leeds and Blackburn have all had their go in the Champions League and along with the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham etc are no less guilty of creating the system which exists now. They were simply not as good as exploiting the situation to their own benefit. The same was true with the Premier League. All those clubs who have since lost membership agreed to set it up in the first place but will now, I'm sure, waste no time complaining that the system works against them.


broodleyhoo
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Apr 22, 2009, 7:40 PM

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Re: [cope1] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Love the post! Can't agree with it all, mind!

In starting the thread, I took great care to say that I don't begrudge the "top 4" their current eminence, so I must, politely, disgaree with the assertion in the first para.

On a case-by-case basis, Chelsea's situation is clearly most financially unsustainable and the most "unfair".

Sure, Man U have been around the top for 15 years or so, but the Glazer investment is also not "normal" financing.

Liverpool likewise albeit over a longer time and to a lesser financial extent

Arsenal much less so, but they fall foul of another part of my complaint. Wenger has indeed produced a fabulous series of players, just as he did at Auxerre. However, why are so few of them British ?

So, yes, I quite agree that these 4 clubs have exploited the system excellently, and are to be praised. Other clubs have not been so well managed or financially fortunate, and have not succeeded.

However, the main thrust of my post was that the mismatch in the Prem has now gone too far. And, to repeat, it is clear from their squad selection and ticket policy in which competition the main interest lies. Don't blame 'em. Two games against Barcelona are much more appealing than 2 against Bolton.

But, by the very acceptance of that point, the clubs have outgrown the domestic environment. For the health of these big fish - and for the rest of the pond life - it's time they moved onwards and upwards.

Finally to return to the restructuring heading under which I posted, what is the point in winning the championship to reward yourself with a season of misery?

I'm not against a tetropoly - just against the stagnation it's causing.


dave
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Apr 22, 2009, 7:51 PM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The point of winning the championship, is to compete in the highest league against the best teams in England.

If you have the top 4 going into a European Super League, that is then took away from them. It then might give the others a chance to win, but then again it might not. Every year you might have Tottenham, Everton, Aston Villa, and Manchester City as the new big 4. And if there happens to be a new big 4, it would be no better for a championship team than now, infact it would be worst as the glamour teams would have been took out. Any championship side going up looks forward to playing the top teams.

Also I'm not certain a European Super League would increase money in the long term. Bayern Munich v Lyon to finish mid table in the European Super League would not be of interest after a few seasons it would just be another game. And would there be proper promotion and relegation to the European Super League? I guess not.


Grecian
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:26 PM

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Re: [broodleyhoo] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

but the PL has a whole raft of teams who made it up from the Championship... and who have stayed up. I don't think the % of teams coming up from the championship and dropping straight back down is as high as people think, and probably only a little higher than between the leagues within the FL, and those in turn, not much higher than between L2 and the conference or the conference and the conference N/S.

So, the point in winning the championship is this... you get: guaranteed 8 games against the 'Big 4' which might be a once in a lifetime opportunity (and worth it for that alone); the revenue (and parachute payments if you do go down); the chance to be a Pompy, Wigan, Fulham etc, who now and again have a bad season and struggle against the drop, but equally now and again have great seasons and challenge for Europe.

Would you tell a Pompy fan it wasn't worth them getting into the PL when they were 2-0 up in the UEFA cup vs AC Milan? (ok, so they ended up drawing and later going out of Europe, but still). Foe every Wigan, there's a West Brom, for every Pompy, there's a Palace.


Tivvy_Al
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:30 PM

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Re: [AndyE] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To

In Reply To
In passing, has anyone calculated a Prem table without the big 4's games? On that basis, who would be "best of the rest?"


If we look at last season, it would have been Everton - who came fifth in any case. Aston Villa and Blackburn were the next two, and did in any case come sixth and seventh. What's more, the three relegated clubs would have been the same three that they actually were.

The club which took most points off the Big Four was Manchester City with 7, very much helped by beating Manchester United twice, although Blackburn and Portsmouth were the only two clubs to take at least one point off all four of them.


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UKPunk
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Apr 22, 2009, 10:50 PM

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Re: [dave] apex more problematic than base ? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

For me, one of the attractions of football, or indeed any sport, is the uncertainty of the outcome. As an example, albeit a non-football one, I'm reminded of two very contrasting Wimbledon finals. Last year's final between Nadal and Federer was a classic, not just because the quality of tennis from both players was so high, but because the match was so close. Contrast this with the 1983 final between John McEnroe and Chris Lewis. Everyone expected McEnroe to walk it, and he did. The match was boring simply because one player was so much better than the other, that there was so little uncertainty about the outcome.

This onesidedness is inceasingly apparent in the Premiership. Never before have the top clubs been so much more powerful than those beneath them. There was a time not so long ago when even the bottom club in the Premiership had some tangible chance of getting a result against the top sides. This is no longer the case. When the likes of West Brom go to Old Trafford their main concern is to keep the score down in case goal difference plays a part in their league position at the end of the season.

Quite often I don't bother with the first 20 minutes of Match Of The Day because it's usually the same clubs on first, and unless they are playing away from home and/or against a club in the top half of the table, the result is almost a foregone conclusion. This situation can't be good for the game. Surely, the more competitive the league is, the more exciting it is.

Any change has to start at the top of the game. Even in Europe the clubs are not on a level playing field. Germany, as an example, exact far stronger financial discipline on their clubs. It's no wonder that Barcelona, as good as they are, can stuff Bayern Munich 4-0 when you examine the difference in financial allowances afforded the two clubs. What is needed is for all clubs to be subject to a universal set of financial regulations. But of course, even if this were to be agreed by the clubs (which would never happen!) you can bet that the EU would cry, "you can't do that, it's a restraint of trade!"



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