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Aston Villa - what's the point.

 

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buncranaboy
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Feb 26, 2009, 8:07 PM

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Aston Villa - what's the point. Can't Post or Reply Privately

I posted on another thread about Villa fans venting their fury at the clubs late decision not to bother sending a first team to CSKA Moscow tonight - they duly lost 2-0 - as they "concentrate on the league".
There are pages of letters in tonights Birmingham Mail from and on behalf of outraged fans whose trip to the Russian capital has cost as much as £1200 who would obviously not have gone (or probably helped make the first leg a virtual sellout as well) had they known the club couldn't be arsed.
Two weeks ago Villa sat 3rd in the league and had attractive - and winnable, if difficult - ties in the FA and UEFA Cups. Now all their efforts are going into NOT winning a trophy, but finishing fourth. That would be the fourth place that guarantees them a qualifying round in next seasons Champions League and if they're luckier than Everton were last time they might even get to the group stages. As for winning it ?
One impassioned letter from a disgusted fan claimed that Villa fans would much rather have had a day out at a final at Wembley or Istanbul (or both) than finish fourth and be included in a competition they stand little chance of winning and they have "chucked" the competitions they could well have won.
Even if one can understand the rationale, it's an appalling liberty to take with the clubs fans and it may well have damaging repercussions should Villa finish fifth. Which would place them in the UEFA Cup next year. Full houses there, I'm sure.................................

And as for the money.......................would Villa not have made more from going on to (let's say) win both the FA Cup and UEFA Cup than they might from a CL group exit ??


mick
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Feb 26, 2009, 8:36 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

'Aston Villa - what's the point.'
Quite, the sooner they go out of business the better.Smile

Seriously, I know a couple of Villa fans who go to all the European away games and they are not happy. Going back to when the Baggies played in Europe in the late 70s / early 80s, I went to all the games bar one and I would have been equally unhappy if we had fielded a 2nd string - fortunately such things were unheard of back then.

If teams such as Villa do not want to treat the UEFA cup seriously then I wonder why they bother to take part at all. Why not let their place go to those who do care about their fans who, in the main I suspect, would far prefer a European final than a scrap for a 4th/5th place finish in the League.

If this trend grows, I wonder if Mr Platini will look to take away some of England's places in the UEFA competitions and give them to countries who do care.


buncranaboy
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Re: [mick] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

To make it even worse - Villa didn't even qualify for the UEFA Cup. They entered via the InterToto cup just to make sure they had European football. Why ? And as Mick said, the effect on England's co-efficient (for clubs) will ultimately be detrimental if all UEFA qualifiers fail year upon year


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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
And as for the money.......................would Villa not have made more from going on to (let's say) win both the FA Cup and UEFA Cup than they might from a CL group exit ??

Maybe one of you guys can clarify this or otherwise, but I think I read an article somewhere giving the prize money figures for each stage of the UEFA Cup and the Champions League. If my memory is not playing tricks I seem to remember that the total revenue created for winning the UEFA Cup amounts to less that the total amount for finishing bottom of the Champions League group stage.

If this is so not only is it wrong but it would go some way to explaining why the UEFA Cup is largely disregarded by many clubs as a trophy worth even trying to win.



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Dave R
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Re: [UKPunk] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Villa's attitude makes a mockery of their involvement in the UEFA Cup . They are hardly seasoned European campaigners in recent years and so one would imagine they would welcome an extended European campaign.

However, the financial side of the UEFA Cup is minimal compared to the Champions League. Everton played 10 games in the UEFA Cup last season and apparently made very little money- well below seven figures which is a pittance compared to Champions League TV money. At least Everton took the competition seriously - we won 8, drew 1 and lost 1. The fans loved it - good trips to Ukraine, Germany, Holland, Norway and Italy. The one we lost was on penalties.

All the more galling when the final was contested by one side beaten by Everton (Zenit) and another (Rangers) who managed about five shots on target throughout the whole competition.

I'm sure Villa fans have equally enjoyed their trips abroad this season, and it is a shame they have been let down by their club.


buncranaboy
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Re: [Dave R] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Is there a case for any Villa fans who bought an expensive club trip to Moscow to now sue the club to reclaim their expenditure due to the club not honouring their part of the "contract" by sending out an uncompetitive team. I seem to recall this being mentioned last year when Bolton did the same in Lisbon but don't know if anything ever came of it.
At the very least, Villa - and Spurs for that matter - should be banned from the UEFA Cup for at least next season under the non-tryers rule used in racing.


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Re: [Dave R] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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However, the financial side of the UEFA Cup is minimal compared to the Champions League. Everton played 10 games in the UEFA Cup last season and apparently made very little money- well below seven figures which is a pittance compared to Champions League TV money.

Which is exactly my point. To challenge for the Premiership you need money and lots of it. But the way the money is distributed between the Champions League and the UEFA Cup is so lopsided that it makes far more financial sense for Villa to concentrate on getting into the top 4 of the Premiership because as long as they can negotiate the qualifying round they'll make more for failing miserably in the Champions League group stage than they will for winning the UEFA Cup. Crazy

It's the system that needs changing but I think there's more chance of seeing a certain banker giving up his pension than that happening. Pirate



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Re: [UKPunk] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So will Spurs make more money trying to win the league cup tan staying in the UEFA CUP? Prize up for grabs a place in the UEFA Cup Crazy Go on Harry make my day Angelic



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VP
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Feb 28, 2009, 10:33 AM

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Re: [UKPunk] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
And as for the money.......................would Villa not have made more from going on to (let's say) win both the FA Cup and UEFA Cup than they might from a CL group exit ??

Maybe one of you guys can clarify this or otherwise, but I think I read an article somewhere giving the prize money figures for each stage of the UEFA Cup and the Champions League. If my memory is not playing tricks I seem to remember that the total revenue created for winning the UEFA Cup amounts to less that the total amount for finishing bottom of the Champions League group stage.

If this is so not only is it wrong but it would go some way to explaining why the UEFA Cup is largely disregarded by many clubs as a trophy worth even trying to win.


The prize money is detailed on the UEFA site for 2006/07. I can't find detials of 2007/08.

Some highlights:-

Champions League

each club received a participation premium of €2m. The surplus revenue generated over and above the expected revenue saw each club receive an extra €1m. Each club also received €400,000 per group match played, totalling €2.4m per club. Group victories were worth €600,000, and each draw €300,000.

That's just for taking part - there's a lot more money available for winning through the group stages.

UEFA Cup

each club received €70,000 for each round played, from the first qualifying round to the first round proper - totaling a maximum €210,000. Part of the UEFA Champions League surplus revenue was awarded to the 80 clubs who played in the UEFA Cup first round. Each club in question received €100,000.

Group stage
Each team that played in the UEFA Cup group stage received a fixed sum of €70,000. A win in the group stage was worth €40,000, and €20,000 was earned for a draw. Teams that went through to the knockout stages received €70,000 for the Round of 32 and the same amount for the Round of 16. These sums were not paid to teams who joined the competition from the UEFA Champions League group stage.

Winners' earnings
UEFA Cup quarter-finalists received €300,000 each, while the semi-finalists received €600,000 each. Sevilla FC earned €2.5m for winning the final, and a total of €6.25m for the season, and runners-up RCD Espanyol received €1.5m (€5.31m for the season). In addition, the quarter-finalists earned a sum in accordance with the value of their national market, and depending on whether they qualified for the semi-finals.


http://www.uefa.com/...4/newsid=559777.html

There's a link on that page which shows the total amount each team won - http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/555726.pdf

Sevilla got 6.25 million Euros for winning the UEFA Cup. Only one team in the Champions League got less than that - PFC Levski Sofia got 5.56 million Euros. AC Milan got 39.59 million by winning it.


(This post was edited by VP on Feb 28, 2009, 10:43 AM)


buncranaboy
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Post #10 of 45 (7545 views)
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Re: [VP] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Fair enough VP but my point is about that commodity which is increasingly rare in football - honesty ! The official Villa trip to Moscow cost apparently £1,495 and do those punters feel taken advantage of ? Too right they do !

To stop this farcical situation arising again, I'd punish those clubs who treated their European qualification (and their fans) with contempt by banning them from the next European season they qualify for - hopefully the Champions League - on the non-tryers rule.


KnowYourMarket
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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The prize fund is being altered next year (I think) with the re-branding of the UEFA/Intertoto Cups into the Europa League. Maybe they will take it more seriously then.......

Harry doesn't have to worry about Europe next yearSmile All we need is Villa to capitulate and maybe someone like West Ham or Fulham will take it seriously.

Clubs no longer take seriously the FA Cup, League Cup or UEFA Cup, which begs the question, what's the bloody point.....



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buncranaboy
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Re: [modelhobbies] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Clubs no longer take seriously the FA Cup, League Cup or UEFA Cup, which begs the question, what's the bloody point.....



Probably best ask that of the Middlesbrough fans whose club just a couple of years ago reached the UEFA Cup Final and who would have had the season of their lives. That would have been because they were celebrating finishing fifteenth again or whatever. Obviously.


ash
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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem seems to be that in order to take the UEFA Cup seriously, an English club needs to be in that no-man's land in the league where Champions League qualification is a pipe dream and relegation unlikely. Over recent seasons there has been something of a log-jam at the bottom often involving our UEFA Cup entrants - perhaps unsurprisingly as the extra games in Europe have taken their toll on small squads they find themselves in the mire, and the number of teams in the 'no-man's land' zone has shrunk.


buncranaboy
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Re: [ash] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

True - but how sad is it that for many teams, being in no-mans land every season is the limit of their ambitions. Surely more pertinent to ask - what's the point of that ?

I didn't notice FC Twente, Marseille, Valencia, PSG etc putting out noticeably understrength teams in midweek despite all being in CL challenging-positions. Why here ?


Grecian
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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is sad... but without the £millions available at the bigger clubs - the current 'big 4' - how are the no man's land clubs going to get any higher? It seems to me to be a slight double standard (in general, not directed and bucranboy) that when a team like Spurs or Newcastle speak of breaking into the top 4, they are derided for being over ambitious, greedy, living above their means or even arrogant (and everyone enjoys the schadenfreude when they struggle in later seasons) but then, when clubs focus on what, in a business sense, makes most sense at the time (which is ultimately financial return - CL qualification for Villa, Carling Cup success/PL survival for Spurs...) they are seen as a disgrace for not taking something else seriously, be it the UEFA Cup, FA Cup, League Cup.

I'm sure Harry would have loved to be secure enough in the PL (and perhaps already out of the League Cup) that he felt confident to play a stronger team in the UEFA Cup - but there's little point being UEFA Cup champions and playing in the Championship... certainly no point in going out of the UEFA Cup in the quarters or semis and getting relegated because you've played another 4-6 matches! Likewise for Villa; why risk your best squad and the chance for a CL place next season (with the vastly more £££ it would bring) for progress to another round of UEFA Cup matches this season and possibly nothing more than more Europa League football next? Everton are having a good season, but would they really be doing as well had they not gone out of Europe so early - particularly with this season's striker problem?

Admittedly, these arguments would be stronger if Spurs had pipped Man U and Villa not conceded two late goals (and thrown away two league points) vs. Stoke on Sunday.


mick
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Re: [Grecian] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

But if it is right not to take the competition seriously, why bother to enter in the first place? Villa went into the Intertoto back in July just to get there - as Buncranaboy says 'what's the point'?


dave
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Re: [Grecian] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


Admittedly, these arguments would be stronger if Spurs had pipped Man U and Villa not conceded two late goals (and thrown away two league points) vs. Stoke on Sunday.



Completely destroyed more like!

So many people seem to use the reasoning in your post to justify it. But its not as if its one or the other. It could be both. It might be none.

I don't think Tottenham will get relegated anyway, but say if they did, what would have been better, them getting relegagted and going out of the UEFA Cup in the last 32, or them being relegated and winning the UEFA Cup. (Yes don't tell me, them getting relegated and not winning it as it would mean fixture congestion in the championship!) Did Harry Rednapp return from the future and knows what would have happened if Spurs win the UEFA Cup or not? How could he know. Nothing is ever guaranteed in this game.

The fact is Spurs could get relegated anyway, so why not try and win the UEFA Cup.

As for Aston Villa, same for them really. Nothing is guaranteed. If Martin O'Neill has also come back from the future he is fully justified in doing what he has done. But I'm going to repeat myself again. Nothing is guaranteed. If Aston Villa finish 5th this season, what would have been the point of throwing away the place in the UEFA Cup anyway. Surely if Aston Villa are going to finish 5th, they might as well win (or try and win) the UEFA Cup at the same time.

Its not one or the other. Thats what most people are forgetting in this who are in favour of it, and the reason I'm against it.


Grecian
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Re: [mick] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The clue is in your response... "back in July" they would have taken it seriously, but who, "back in July", would have predicted Spurs would be within spitting distance of a relegation battle come March; would, in January, re-sign a good number of the best players that they had recenty or were shortly going to sell; and would have made the Carling Cup final - again? - or that Villa would be 4th, 6 points clear of Arsenal in 5th and only 3 points behind Chelsea in 2nd?

The circumstances changed and and so did the priorities... I think both teams in question did take the UEFA Cup seriously, in the 6-7 previous matches. Unfortunately, 8th match around, success in the UEFA Cup was up against more pressing concerns and other priorities and the choice was made to rest some first team players to make a better go at other competitions.

Let's not forget that much of this would be by-the-by if either team had gone through... and there's no guarantee that a 'stronger' Spurs or Villa side would have progressed either. At the end of the day, managers have to best utilise the resources they have available for the maximum return in the most effiecient way possible based on the circumstances they find themselves in at the time (often with Board's demands alongside players and fans, which might not all align). Circumstances which might change in the immediate future and show their previous decisions were costly - or irelevant - may occur but, ultimately, they are not psychic and must prepare as best they can for what they can see coming up ahead.

Would you really prefer you club to be relegated because they played their strongest team in the last 32 of a cup competition and progressed to the last 16 - or still be in their current league next season but out of the cup?

Likewise, would you really prefer you club to miss out on the CL or automatic promotion because they played their strongest team in the last 32 of a cup competition and progressed to the last 16 - or have CL football/get promoted next season but out of the cup?


Grecian
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Re: [dave] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You're exactly right, they're not able to tell the future, and it isn't one or the other... but managers have to take calcualted risks on what they think is most likely. And, as I said above, they might be shown to be wrong, but they have to do what they think is best - which might well be playing a less strong team... and equally, who's to say, until they do, that the less strong team won't also win or that the strongest team definately would?


(This post was edited by Grecian on Mar 2, 2009, 9:51 PM)


dave
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Re: [Grecian] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
and equally, who's to say, until they do, that the less strong team won't also win or that the strongest team definately would?



As I keep saying nothing is guaranteed. So yes, Villa could have lost with their strongest squad anyway.

In the end the best finance is achieved by BOTH finishing in the champions league places and by winning the UEFA Cup.


(This post was edited by dave on Mar 3, 2009, 9:44 AM)


buncranaboy
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Re: [dave] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

One of the main issues for me is the duplicity in use. Fans, TV companies and viewers, advertisers...........all conned by these clubs to some degree or another.
Would Villa Park have been filled by 38,000 fans and would ITV (or whoever) have paid to cover the game had they known that, actually, Villa's management didn't give a toss about the toe overall ?

And is it complete coincidence that Villa have started to wobble after their exits from the FA and UEFA Cups ?Winning is a wonderful habit - great for fans, great for players. Throw a couple of defeats (even self-inflicted defeats) into the mix and the whole confidence bubble is pierced and that CL place looks a tad less secure that when they were occupying themselves on all fronts.

And why don't Bolton, Blackburn,Reading and whoever else - if the cap fits - announce NOW that they have no intention of competing for next season's FA/Carling Cups so that the diminshing number of fans who attend the cup games at least know in advance that they're likely to see a contest when they pay their hard-earned.


KnowYourMarket
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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
One of the main issues for me is the duplicity in use. Fans, TV companies and viewers, advertisers...........all conned by these clubs to some degree or another.
Would Villa Park have been filled by 38,000 fans and would ITV (or whoever) have paid to cover the game had they known that, actually, Villa's management didn't give a toss about the toe overall ?

And is it complete coincidence that Villa have started to wobble after their exits from the FA and UEFA Cups ?Winning is a wonderful habit - great for fans, great for players. Throw a couple of defeats (even self-inflicted defeats) into the mix and the whole confidence bubble is pierced and that CL place looks a tad less secure that when they were occupying themselves on all fronts.

And why don't Bolton, Blackburn,Reading and whoever else - if the cap fits - announce NOW that they have no intention of competing for next season's FA/Carling Cups so that the diminshing number of fans who attend the cup games at least know in advance that they're likely to see a contest when they pay their hard-earned.


I know who's at your premises today!Tongue



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buncranaboy
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Re: [modelhobbies] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Quite correct - she did pop in ! Must have been a Freudian slip...............

Anyway............."Happy birthday to yoooooooooo"

Modelhobbies is 29 again and will be celebrating it in a field near you Tongue


KnowYourMarket
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Re: [buncranaboy] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

All the fields seem to be soggy, which may mean a night in, what a treat...........



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Re: [modelhobbies] Aston Villa - what's the point. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Happy birthday. Would have give you a big sloppy one tonight but game looks iffy.
Will p/m soon when I find out and post.



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