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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
German model

 



cope1
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Feb 7, 2009, 9:41 AM

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Post #1 of 11 (4208 views)
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German model Can't Post or Reply Privately

I know we already have endless discussion about how to divide teams up to reduce travelling but I have another one for you. I like the German model which doesn't use much pooling, rather it sends clubs back to their 'home' state or region quite high up the pyramid. I would like to see a similar system applied to the English pyramid whereby clubs are divided into regions based on their county affiliation. I would start with Conference regionals at Step 1 fed by 4 'Areas', each consisting of 2 'Regions'. Below that each region sorts its pyramid out to suit its own needs. The regions are collections of county FAs.

The attached spreadsheet gives an example of this applied to steps 1-4 of this season's NLS. It uses a 2-4-8 division setup and I have only included clubs in the top 4 steps, so some of the divisions at step 3 (it doesn't cover 4 steps) have a lot of 'vacancies' to fill. Needless to say I would envisage ground grading being amended to allow this to happen.

NB. I currently have a Southern 'area' which consists of SE and SW but this may be totally impractical. It may be better to combine SW with West Mids and SE with Central or something.

Comments cautiously invited of course. It has a pretty coloured map of the regions too in case that entices anyone in...

ps. county affiliations taken from a large spreddie I have of county cup entrants for 07-08. Where counties appear in capitals I couldn't find them in county cups (not all sites had info available) so I have made educated guesses. Where dual affiliation applies I have lumped clubs into their geographic county and where teams affiliate to London and one other I have taken the other as it is generally a more useful indicator of location.

pps. rankings are basically Step number multiplied by 100 less points per game this season (so a team in step 2 with 48 pts from 24 games would have a ranking of 198 etc).


(This post was edited by cope1 on Feb 7, 2009, 12:08 PM)


rainworthgord
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Feb 7, 2009, 11:49 AM

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Re: [cope1] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

What a disappointment. When I saw the title of this thread I was looking for some pictures. Wink

I couldn't open the attachment, but I've a rough idea of how things work in Deutschland, having a passing interest in SV Wacker Burghausen through a friend who lives there (but hates football), and it works well as far as I can see.


cope1
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Feb 7, 2009, 12:10 PM

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Re: [rainworthgord] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry to disappoint you Gord...

I forgot to save as 97-2003 version last time - you should be able to open it now though.

The main point of it is that clubs stay in regions rather than pooling. The other point of it was me getting to colour in the map... Wink


leohoenig
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Feb 7, 2009, 10:01 PM

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Re: [cope1] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I also cannot open the file. This may be a problem at my end - the web page seems to freeze whenever I try to open an .xls file.
So let me make a few comments about the similarities and differences between the German and English pyramids.

Unlike the English system, which started with overlapping and competing leagues, the German system has always been on fixed regions, with the leagues corresponding to administrative districts. The base level of German administration is the Lander, and the German structure is basically one league per Lander. [The Bundesrepublic is a federation of Lander (or states)]. The national leagues, basically the top four divisions have been placed above the Oberliga (Over -League) over the last 45 years.

There are now three National divisions, followed by three Regionalliga (regional division 4). The regionalliga do not have to stick directly to the areas of the Lander, but with the re-organisation for this season, there is now a good correspondence.

For relegation from 3. Bundesliga to Regionalliga, a similar system should operate to England - that is if all three sides fall into the same Region, teams will be transferred to the other regions to keep each at the same strength (18 teams).

However, the same is not true for the next level down. If for example, all the teams relegated from Regionalliga Sud are from Hessen, then all will drop to the Hessenliga, and no team will switch to the other leagues to compensate. This results in two things.
  1. The number of teams in the Oberliga (and all levels below) is not fixed, but will vary slightly according to the numbers relegated from above.
  2. The number of teams relegated from the Oberliga, and other lower leagues is also not always fixed, but can vary dependent on the number of teams in the division.


If we wish to take a German model, and fix the boundaries between leagues at a certain level (and all lower levels) then we need to create a relaxation of the system in other ways - the number of teams in each division, or the numbers of relegations from each division (or numbers of promotions as well, if we look at some of Angus' ideas).

My apologies if this is not 'in context'



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cope1
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Feb 8, 2009, 10:42 AM

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Re: [leohoenig] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Try this - I've pasted it into plain text format with tabs so you can copy and paste into Excel. I've attached the map separately. Or I can email if anyone wants.

I would envisage exactly the relaxation of division sizes and relegation spots that you mention in points 1 and 2 Leo. The other point to make about the German system is that at level 5 the setup is not uniform across the country. The Regionalliga Nord has 7 feeders with 2 having their own automatic promotion spot, 2 more play-off for 1 spot and the last 3 playing off for the final spot. In the West there are just 2 feeders, 1 with 2 promotion spots, the other with 1 and in the South there are 3, with 1 spot each.

In my model I have done everything right up to step 1 on the basis of clubs staying in their regions. It might be better to have pooling at step 1 and maybe 2. Below this I have 8 regions and I would like to see them organise things to suit their own needs. For instance, if there are twice as many clubs at a particular step in one region compared with another, that first region may want to have 2 parallel divisions. The only restriction is that they each promote 2 clubs from their regional Premier Division.


(This post was edited by cope1 on Feb 8, 2009, 10:43 AM)


SeanM
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Feb 8, 2009, 8:33 PM

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Re: [cope1] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was able to open the original spreadsheet, although I suspect it was in Office 2007/8 format (".xlsx"). The revised link was an Office 2003/4 format (".xls") and seemed to open correctly, although I needed to adjust several column widths (for readability).

As to the browser-related problems, I can not speak for a "Vista" environment. Under Windows/XP, SP2, some browsers have difficulty directly opening spreadsheet links (i.e.: opening the spreadsheet directly in the browser, rather than downloading it). Under SP3, this seems to be corrected.

I tested this under IE7, Firefox 3, Safari and Opera. Each browser opened the spreadsheet correctly. I no longer have an IE6 PC to test this facility.

One should note that versions of EXCEL prior to Office 2003 might not act correctly when "opening" a ".xls" file. Further, Office 2003/4 can open Office 2007/8 files (EXCEL and Word), although one might need the "Office Compatibility Pack". This is available (somewhere) from Microsoft, or may be found at Microsoft Office Info.

I hope this helps.



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-- Christopher Columbus

"Welcome to the New World"
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AndyE
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Feb 8, 2009, 9:30 PM

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Post #7 of 11 (3828 views)
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Re: [SeanM] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

OpenOffice opened it just fine - it's been noted elsewhere that it opens MS Office files that are not in the latest format rather more easily than does MS Office itself!

In principle I quite like the method suggested here. One thing we do have to remember though - Germany is a much larger country than England. The system in Germany is currently 1-1-1-3-12-33 if I'm counting correctly, but of those twelve leagues at the fifth level one of them covers the whole of Bavaria - which is half the size of England. So the travelling at that level can in some cases be considerable. On the other hand, another of the fifth level leagues covers only Hamburg - its footprint is smaller than that of the Essex Senior League.

Is there any feeling in Germany that a restructuring to even out these differences in travelling distances is needed?


mick
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Feb 8, 2009, 10:33 PM

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Re: [AndyE] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am sure the title of this thread will increase the hits on Tony's site Smile.

The Bayernliga covers only one Land and has automatic promotion to level 4. In areas where the Länder are smaller, they are usually grouped at the 5th level, again with automatic promotion.

Until this season, the North also used to adopt this grouping approach but have now reorganised back to Länder-based leagues (and in the case of Niedersachsen to sub-Land East & West leagues), presumably to reduce travelling/costs. As a result, the Hamburg champions must play off against the champions of the Bremen Liga & Schleswig-Holstein Liga for promotion.

On the other hand, Nordrhein-Westfalen Land have moved to one step 5 league, where previously they had two. So it would appear restructuring, within the overall model, is somthing which happens on an ongoing basis.

If the will was there, I expect something similar to what is cope1 has put forward could work in England. I doubt, though, that the will is there.


leohoenig
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Feb 9, 2009, 1:27 PM

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Post #9 of 11 (3734 views)
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Re: [mick] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The are 16 Lander in Germany (as far as administrative regions are concerned).
Bayern (Bavaria) is the largest in area, but Nordrhein-Westfalen has the highest population.

The following Lander have their own Oberliga at level 5 of the German pyramid.
Bayern, Baden-Wurttemburg, Hessen, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Schleswig-Holstein, and the city states of Bremen and Hamburg

Of these, the first three have a single promotion place (all to Regionalliga Sud), Nordrhein-Westfalen has two promotion places (to Regionalliga West) and the other three play off for a single promotion to Regionalliga Nord.

Nordrhein and Westfalen were separate Oberliga until the end of last season, which explains their double promotion place.
The other promotion place in regionalliga West goes to the champions of the Oberliga Sudwest, which incorporates the Lander of Saarland and Rheinland-Pfalz (Rhineland-Palintinate in English).

The three mentioned above were all last season part of the giant Oberliga Nord, which split into five - the other two being Neidersachsen Ost and West (Lower Saxony, East and West), which play off for one place in Regionalliga Nord.

The final six Lander are those of the old East Germany, which are divided into two Oberliga, NordOst-Nord, and NordOst-Sud. There is not an absolute correspondence between the Lander and the groups, but NordOst-Nord is basically Mecklenberg-Vorpommen, Brandenburg and Berlin, while NordOst-Sud is Sachsen (Saxony), Sachsen-Anhalt (Saxony-Anhalt) and Thuringen. These two Oberliga each have a promotion place, to Regionalliga Nord.



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Veteran
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Feb 11, 2009, 1:32 PM

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Post #10 of 11 (3569 views)
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Re: [cope1] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or

As a blueprint the German model may not be far off the ideal. But it has one HUGE drawback - the prresence of reserve teams at all levels from Level 3 downwards.


SeanM
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Feb 20, 2009, 7:19 PM

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Post #11 of 11 (3322 views)
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Re: [Veteran] German model [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The German model, as applied to the non-league structure, gave rise to some curious observations. As laid out in the spreadsheet, the non-league pyramid is represented as a pyramid frustum (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PyramidalFrustum.html). (A nice graphic, but the math can be boring).

This representation is based on the following application:

2 Regional "Conferences" : 2 x 22
4 Regional "Areas" : 4 x 22
8 Regional "Leagues" : (9,12), (15,18), (25,16), (25,11)

The total number of clubs is (2 x 22) + (4 x 22) + ((9,12), (15,18), (25,16), (25,11)) = 263

This model uses the familiar (1,2,4,8, ... ) progression with the omission of the single National Conference at the top, hence the formation of a frustum. Many progressive sequences have been mentioned, such as Fibonacci and the present 1-2-3-6-14. If one were to consider a slightly different progressive series (1,4,9,16, ...), an interesting result may be found.

1 "Conference" : 1 x 22
4 Regional "Areas" : 4 x 22
9 Regional "Leagues" : 9 x 17

(N.B.: I do not consider myself well versed in the geographic and transportation considerations for the actual individual size(s) of the nine leagues).

In this (1,4,9, ...) model, the total number of clubs is (1 x 22) + (4 x 22) + (9 x 17) = 263

This mathematical coincidence perked my interest. The next member of the progression is "16", which is greater than the fourteen (14) at Step 5, and less the the occasionally mentioned eighteen (18). Curiously, in the aforementioned (1,2,4,8, ...) pattern, the next member of that progression is (surprise!) sixteen (16).

Many in this forum are more knowledgeable in the organization considerations than I, but the single National Conference eliminates (for the nonce), the promotion/relegation issues to/from the Football League (currently two (2)) that might arise with two "top-level" Conferences. Further, I am sure that ground-grading issues might arise in the (2,4,8, ...) model, as well as in the (1,4,9, ...) pattern, as both structures reduce four steps to three.

As for the reduction of the National Conference from 24 to 22, the possibility arises that some "volunteers" (Angelic) may arise.



“And the sea will grant each man new hope . . . as sleep brings dreams of home.”
-- Christopher Columbus

"Welcome to the New World"
-- Jack Ryan


 
 


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