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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Step 5 to step 4

 

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jc100
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Jan 16, 2009, 8:21 PM

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Step 5 to step 4 Can't Post or Reply Privately

It has been said that 4 clubs from the NWCFL, AFC Fylde, Glossop North End, Newcastle Town and New Mills WILL be promoted to the Unibond.But the NWCFL may not approve.
Do the NWCFL have any power to stop them from joining the Unibond ?


Tony Kempster
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Jan 16, 2009, 9:13 PM

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Re: [jc100] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Who said this. Do you have a source?


philglossop
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Jan 16, 2009, 10:23 PM

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Re: [Tony Kempster] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Total pish.

Glossop are hoping to be promoted, but Surrey Street will need a fair bit of work for promotion. One figure banded about for the ground was 10,000. New Mills' ground isn't much better when it comes to standards, therefore I remain of the opinion that only the top side will be promoted which I think will be AFC Fylde.

Of course, I've been wrong before, but it's nice to see a club plan for the future without spending a fortune therefore having long term financial problems.


jc100
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Jan 16, 2009, 10:45 PM

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Re: [Tony Kempster] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I got the information from the NWCFL forum website.


Tony Kempster
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Jan 17, 2009, 8:41 AM

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Re: [jc100] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The information I have form both the FA and from the league is that only one club will be going up - the champions, or if they fail gound grading or decline to go up, then the 2nd placed club providing they meet the criteria.

This is the same for every other step 5 league.


Chapeltom
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Jan 18, 2009, 1:07 PM

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Re: [Tony Kempster] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or

I have spoken to a lot of people about this, some agree and some disagree.

I think either way more than 1 NCEL or NWCFL side will get promoted. This season, sides that have big potential, have the backing, the ground, squad for Step 4 in the NCEL and NWCFL will finish in the top two.

There is the demand for promotion except for the muppets in the North East

Tom


Tony Kempster
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Jan 18, 2009, 1:31 PM

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Re: [Chapeltom] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

There is indeed the demand from the clubs - as there is in most leagues for more promotion places.

However, the leagues - particularly the NWC and NCE - are adamant that only one club will go up unless they get more than one club in return. The days of multiple promotions in the north are over and the Unibond will slowly get towards its target of 22 clubs in each league.

In fact, I think all step 3/4/5 leagues will struggle to keep numbers this years as clubs fold/amalgamate/take voluntary relegation which together with ground grading (if enforced as strictly as stated) could show quite a different shape in the geography and the numbers in each league at steps 3,4 & 5.

Interesting times as we get towards the end of the season. As always, when I get definite news from my various reliable contacts, I will post on the site and the message board.


Chapeltom
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Jan 18, 2009, 1:41 PM

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Re: [Tony Kempster] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or

My huge concern for the NCEL having followed it for around 5 years now, 3 years with Hallam is that once teams who have the facilties go up out the Premier Division and those that move up further like Buxton have that the NCEL Premier Division could be full of sides who are no-hopers. Half the sides in the Premier would struggle to pass Step 5 grading, Maltby Main, Nostell, Hallam to name three.

Another point is Division One has gained 11 new clubs in the last 3 seasons. 5 came up this season and look to have inadequate facilties. Appleby Frodingham apparently only let fans onto the near side of the pitch, Askern Villa have problems, Grimsby share and are generally a poor side. Brighouse and Hemsworth will take 2/3 seasons to get to Step 5 standards. Half the clubs in this league don't make Step 6 requirements, very few met Step 5 and only 1 or 2 would meet Step 4. This league may consume itself. Attendances aren't brilliant and players won't play for sides that can't go anywhere

This in my opinion stems back to the 80s, when sides were allowed to be promoted and clearly didn't make the grade. Now its difficult to shift a club that was needed to make the numbers up 20 years ago and to boot them out or give a warning to get their ground upto scratch.

The NCEL has also lost its better run and more supported clubs. The NWCFL doesn't have this trouble, I think it can sustain itself. The NCEL has 2 feeder leagues, the NWCFL has 6/7. They can even poach West Yorkshire League clubs.

Its a worry.

Tom


UKPunk
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Jan 18, 2009, 8:26 PM

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Post #9 of 42 (5593 views)
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Re: [Tony Kempster] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
There is indeed the demand from the clubs - as there is in most leagues for more promotion places.

However, the leagues - particularly the NWC and NCE - are adamant that only one club will go up unless they get more than one club in return. The days of multiple promotions in the north are over and the Unibond will slowly get towards its target of 22 clubs in each league.

In fact, I think all step 3/4/5 leagues will struggle to keep numbers this years as clubs fold/amalgamate/take voluntary relegation which together with ground grading (if enforced as strictly as stated) could show quite a different shape in the geography and the numbers in each league at steps 3,4 & 5.

Interesting times as we get towards the end of the season. As always, when I get definite news from my various reliable contacts, I will post on the site and the message board.

Tony, as someone with his 'finger on the pulse' so to speak, do you think that it would benefit Non League football as a whole to relax ground grading requirements or do you believe that they should be enforced as the FA has decreed?



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jc100
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Jan 18, 2009, 9:06 PM

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Re: [UKPunk] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

standards for step 5 and above must be kept, i.e floodlighting,minimum number of seats, enclosed, hard surface on 4 sides etc. However there is no need for this at step 6 and below.
We need to draw the line somewhere, otherwise you could get a situation where a parks team going into the premier.


Chapeltom
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Jan 18, 2009, 9:35 PM

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Re: [jc100] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or

I seriously think if you have 4 sides of hard standing, cover for 100 and floodlights you should be let up to the Unibond Premier. I don't care what people say, if a club has the ability on the field and can progress up the leagues, let them.


Richard Rundle
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Jan 18, 2009, 9:37 PM

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Re: [jc100] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
standards for step 5 and above must be kept, i.e floodlighting,minimum number of seats, enclosed, hard surface on 4 sides etc. However there is no need for this at step 6 and below.


I'd say those should be more or less the gradings for Step 4, although I'd not enforce hard standing on all 4 sides at that level either.

--
Richard


UKPunk
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Jan 18, 2009, 9:48 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
standards for step 5 and above must be kept, i.e floodlighting,minimum number of seats, enclosed, hard surface on 4 sides etc. However there is no need for this at step 6 and below.


I'd say those should be more or less the gradings for Step 4, although I'd not enforce hard standing on all 4 sides at that level either.

--
Richard

I agree with Richard on this point. This is one example of where I'd relax ground grading requirements.



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Chapeltom
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Jan 18, 2009, 9:48 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or

Exactly, if a club has 50 fans at Step 5 why do they need hard standing on 4 sides? I think though that spectators must be able to get onto at least 2 sides of the ground. One Step 6 side, Appleby Frodingham have two ends that make access to the far side impossible and viewing behind the goal is impossible. That is taking it a bit too far.

Crowds from Step 7 to Step 3 have a difference of 350 in most cases. Thats very little. My local side Chapel Town had nearly 500 in for a league decider in May. The title could of gone in 3 different ways, Chapel won with a last minute volley. They have 2.5 sides of hard standing, cover for 10 and 3 sides walled off. And despite that got 400/500 in.

Amazing

Tom


(This post was edited by Chapeltom on Jan 18, 2009, 9:49 PM)


AndyE
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Jan 19, 2009, 12:32 AM

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Re: [Chapeltom] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'd be tolerably happy with current Step 5 requirements also being sufficient for Step 4 - so long as the main parts of the Step 5 requirements are actually met. For instance, we've read of a Step 5 club with no seats and another with no hard standing; those things really wouldn't do at Step 4.

But it won't happen - if it were proposed, all the Step 4 clubs who have been required to improve their facilities to promote to or remain at Step 4 would be up in arms, and some club or another would take it to law.

Do clubs have to apply for the Conference in the same way as clubs must apply for Step 4, or is any club whose finishing position is high enough considered for acceptance? And indeed, is a club in that position allowed to say - as some Step 5 clubs do - "thanks, but we prefer to remain at Step 3"?

Because to me, the two natural breaks come at 2/3 and at 6/7. I'd prefer it if promotion were utterly automatic between Steps 3-4-5-6 (subject to seating and floodlights being essential for Step 5, but perhaps not for Step 6). Progression to Step 6 and to Step 2 would be the points at which proper ground grading examinations would be required, and clubs would be entirely at liberty to choose to go no higher than Step 3 if they preferred.

I'd also change the FA competitions accordingly, but that's for another thread another time.


ladderman
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Jan 19, 2009, 11:38 AM

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Post #16 of 42 (5413 views)
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Re: [Chapeltom] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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My huge concern for the NCEL having followed it for around 5 years now, 3 years with Hallam is that once teams who have the facilties go up out the Premier Division and those that move up further like Buxton have that the NCEL Premier Division could be full of sides who are no-hopers. Half the sides in the Premier would struggle to pass Step 5 grading, Maltby Main, Nostell, Hallam to name three.

Another point is Division One has gained 11 new clubs in the last 3 seasons. 5 came up this season and look to have inadequate facilties. Appleby Frodingham apparently only let fans onto the near side of the pitch, Askern Villa have problems, Grimsby share and are generally a poor side. Brighouse and Hemsworth will take 2/3 seasons to get to Step 5 standards. Half the clubs in this league don't make Step 6 requirements, very few met Step 5 and only 1 or 2 would meet Step 4. This league may consume itself. Attendances aren't brilliant and players won't play for sides that can't go anywhere

This in my opinion stems back to the 80s, when sides were allowed to be promoted and clearly didn't make the grade. Now its difficult to shift a club that was needed to make the numbers up 20 years ago and to boot them out or give a warning to get their ground upto scratch.

The NCEL has also lost its better run and more supported clubs. The NWCFL doesn't have this trouble, I think it can sustain itself. The NCEL has 2 feeder leagues, the NWCFL has 6/7. They can even poach West Yorkshire League clubs.

Its a worry.

Tom


Given that the NPL provided 15 clubs for Conference North and has added a second Division One in the last five years, it's almost inevitable that the standards at level five would suffer.


Mr. T
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Jan 19, 2009, 1:10 PM

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Re: [ladderman] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Given that the NPL provided 15 clubs for Conference North and has added a second Division One in the last five years, it's almost inevitable that the standards at level five would suffer.


From 2004 to 2008, the net movement from Step 5 to 4 for the northern leagues was 23 NWCL 12, NCEL 10, NL 1. The MA lost 10 in this time. The other 11 leagues (including IL2 up to 2006) lost just 31 between them, Kent and Wessex being the biggest contributors with 4 each.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Jan 19, 2009, 1:11 PM)


Seagull
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Jan 19, 2009, 4:28 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I'd be tolerably happy with current Step 5 requirements also being sufficient for Step 4 - so long as the main parts of the Step 5 requirements are actually met. For instance, we've read of a Step 5 club with no seats and another with no hard standing; those things really wouldn't do at Step 4.

But it won't happen - if it were proposed, all the Step 4 clubs who have been required to improve their facilities to promote to or remain at Step 4 would be up in arms, and some club or another would take it to law.


This has been mentioned before, but (and I may be being naiive here), how can they? Surely if any league(s) agree to relax it's ground grading it's just hard luck - in most cases I suspect the clubs would have voted on it anyway. Surely they'd rather have a decent number of teams to play with slightly lesser facilities, than the leagues become badly diminished numerically, which is a real possibility in the current financial climate and they have greatly reduced fixture lists. I do think sooner or later clubs, leagues and the FA are going to have to take a more relaxed view, or some leagues will be permanently understrength. The run up to the 2012 Olympics will impact on this as well as it's already becoming obvious that grants for sports facilities are being squeezed because of this event.


AndyE
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Re: [Seagull] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not being a lawyer, I'm not certain how they could, but I reckon someone would find a way. Here's one - suppose a club whose team happens to be mostly black is told that it must do all manner of ground works to get into Step 4. Then comes the relaxation, and another club whose team happens to be all white is allowed up despite having lesser facilities than the other.

Of course the decision wasn't made the way it was because one team was largely black, but there are lawyers who'd give it a shot.


As for the FA taking a more relaxed view of ground requirements, lots and lots of people on this forum and elsewhere have expressed a wish for this to happen. But everything that comes out of the FA makes it very plain that it isn't going to happen.


Seagull
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Jan 19, 2009, 4:38 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I wouldn't even want to contemplate your first part - but no doubt they'd be queuing up to take it on, sadly.

As far as the second bits concerned, publically the FA may say that's the case at the moment, but if the current financial situation continues for any real length of time, I suspect they will have to reconsider or parts of the pyramid system may simply stop functioning.


rainworthgord
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Jan 19, 2009, 10:53 PM

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Re: [AndyE] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Not being a lawyer, I'm not certain how they could, but I reckon someone would find a way. Here's one - suppose a club whose team happens to be mostly black is told that it must do all manner of ground works to get into Step 4. Then comes the relaxation, and another club whose team happens to be all white is allowed up despite having lesser facilities than the other.

Of course the decision wasn't made the way it was because one team was largely black, but there are lawyers who'd give it a shot.


As for the FA taking a more relaxed view of ground requirements, lots and lots of people on this forum and elsewhere have expressed a wish for this to happen. But everything that comes out of the FA makes it very plain that it isn't going to happen.



It may happen for step 6, for which the requirements for a G grade are being looked at again. That is why the 31.3.09 dedline for achieving a G grade for step 6 clubs has been put back to 2010. Step 6 clubs will not be relegated for ground grading this season.


StokePriorAndy
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Jan 19, 2009, 11:33 PM

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Re: [rainworthgord] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It happened in the restructure at Step 4 so I believe it is likely to happen to get things done at Step 5 and 6. Three sided grounds are now acceptable at Step 3 and there's not been a reason for them not to be at that level. If you can get behind both goals and down one side that should be enough for most teams playing up to and including Step 3 and much of Step 2.

Interesting that Bedworth got over 2,000 in vs Nuneaton and there's not a lot of hard standing there, although it round all sides but the ground does rise behind one goal to make the pitch visible a fair way back. If they can cope with 2,000 there then normal crowds of 200 maximum should be easily accommodated at most clubs with little trouble. I do baulk at some places where the lack of basic facilities i.e. decent toilets and some available cover makes the grounds a shambles even at Step 4.


VP
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Re: [AndyE] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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As for the FA taking a more relaxed view of ground requirements, lots and lots of people on this forum and elsewhere have expressed a wish for this to happen. But everything that comes out of the FA makes it very plain that it isn't going to happen.


I read somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it was an official FA statement, that they are currently reviewing ground gradings at step 5 with a view to get rid of some of the more pointless ideas like making sure the dug-outs are equidistant from the half way line.


MattRamLives
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Re: [VP] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
As for the FA taking a more relaxed view of ground requirements, lots and lots of people on this forum and elsewhere have expressed a wish for this to happen. But everything that comes out of the FA makes it very plain that it isn't going to happen.


I read somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it was an official FA statement, that they are currently reviewing ground gradings at step 5 with a view to get rid of some of the more pointless ideas like making sure the dug-outs are equidistant from the half way line.



and what about.................
well coverering for 100 or whatever when 50 attend etc etc etc realism - ok a big crowd is expected but a parks pitch (discussion had before I know) can take a few hundred
personally I like to sit in a temperature controlled room, beer on tap, sky all angle 3d replays, fanzone, stats and some blonde haired Amazonians feeding me grapes - amongst other needs
Completely agree with you, it really is time to real - I used to go a ground that had a bloke attend every game in an electric wheelchair - hard enough for the firm of foot to get halfway - what happenend? turned up every week and got in - even if we lifted him (no hardstanding)
Great to improve facilities but some rules really dont reflect reality or well reality, it should be a keyword for the FA (and Man City)


VP
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Jan 21, 2009, 1:40 PM

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Re: [MattRamLives] Step 5 to step 4 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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and what about.................
well coverering for 100 or whatever when 50 attend etc etc etc realism - ok a big crowd is expected but a parks pitch (discussion had before I know) can take a few hundred
personally I like to sit in a temperature controlled room, beer on tap, sky all angle 3d replays, fanzone, stats and some blonde haired Amazonians feeding me grapes - amongst other needs
Completely agree with you, it really is time to real - I used to go a ground that had a bloke attend every game in an electric wheelchair - hard enough for the firm of foot to get halfway - what happenend? turned up every week and got in - even if we lifted him (no hardstanding)
Great to improve facilities but some rules really dont reflect reality or well reality, it should be a keyword for the FA (and Man City)


You need to come to Camberley. We can do all that apart from the Amazonians. You'll have to make do with a nurse, a masseuse or a BT engineer!
The extra cover was an old Isthmian League rule which was bought in nationally when the FA got involved with ground gradings. We thought it was a waste of money at the time but it gets used. The opposite end hasn't got any cover and hardly anyone goes up there. It's only when the away team have a few singers that there's life behind that goal.

It's one of those things that I believe is in the club's interest to have as it can generate just a little bit of atmosphere and feels more homely but should it be mandatory? Probably not.

Re. disabled spectators - I feel the ground gradings at lower levels haven't helped as clubs now have walls around the pitch that seem, from my point of view, just a little bit too high for someone in a wheelchair to see properly. I may be wrong. Of course it would be nice to have a specific disabled viewing area with good access but it's something clubs don't do unless they have to hence wheelchair users at step 5 are rarely seen.
It's something I'd like to see an improvement on as well as disabled toilets but again, should it be mandatory?

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