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Kent League in the 1890s

Dylan's Dad
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Dec 27, 2008, 10:09 PM

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Location: The Black Country
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Kent League in the 1890s	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have a query about the Kent League in the 1890s which I dunno if anyone can help with. According to FCHD, New Brompton (Gillingham) fielded their first team in the KL (in addition to the Southern League) in 1895-96 (in Div 1) and 1897-98 (in Div 2), but not in the season in between. The club's own centenary book published in 1993, however, lists the team as having played in Div 2 in 1896-97 (and in fact winning it) but not the following year. Does anyone have access to the full tables and can confirm one way or the other.........?

Cheers!!

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

pitch 63
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Jan 29, 2009, 9:48 PM

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Post #2 of 14 (1992 views)
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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

My our records show Kent League Tables for 1896-97 as follows -

SEASON 1896-97 DIVISION 1 1 WOOLWICH ARSENAL RESERVES 16 13 3 0 81 11 29 2 FOLKESTONE 16 10 4 2 46 21 24 3 SITTINGBOURNE 16 8 2 6 30 33 18 4 DOVER 16 7 3 6 36 30 15 5 ASHFORD UNITED 16 5 5 6 33 34 15 6 FAVERSHAM 16 5 4 7 35 43 14 7 MAIDSTONE UNITED 16 4 5 7 29 40 13 8 CRAY WANDERERS 16 6 1 9 44 37 13 9 MAIDSTONE CHURCH INSTITUTE 16 0 1 15 8 84 1 DIVISION 2 1 FOLKESTONE RESERVES 8 7 1 0 27 9 15 2 FAVERSHAM RESERVES 8 4 1 3 21 15 9 3 SITTINGBOURNE RESERVES 8 3 2 3 16 12 8 4 ASHFORD UNITED RESERVES 8 2 1 5 15 23 5 5 DOVER RESERVES 8 1 1 6 13 27 3

As New Brompton finished in the middle of Division 1 the previous season, and played in Division 2 in 1897-98 the can only be two assumptions -

1 The centenary book is incorrect

2 New Brompton may have played in the Kent League in 1896-97 but dropped out during the season.

However, Bob Barton's Non League book shows that New Brompton Reserves played a single season in the Kent League - 1896/97 - and won Division 2. Trouble is I cannot remember where I copied my table from, but the FCHD website shows that Folkestone Reserves won the Second Division in 1896-97.

A conundrum.

Darren Lovell
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Feb 1, 2009, 10:53 AM

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Re: [pitch 63] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I forwarded this information to my club historian at Maidstone United and he was dubious as to its' accuracy. He pointed out his concerns with the information posted (bearing in mind he has not read this thread).

Firstly, Maidstone United were not in existence in 1896/7, having only formed in season 1897/8. The two Maidstone based teams should probably read as Maidstone Church Institute and Maidstone Invicta (United coming into existence as a combination of the two).

Secondly, by his assertions, New Brompton did not take part in this Kent League in that season. All of the information held by my historian was sourced (at great length and detail) from the Kent Messenger archive information held at the main Kent County Library in Maidstone.

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pitch 63
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Feb 1, 2009, 11:30 AM

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Re: [Darren Lovell] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I have been looking through various on line sites in an effort to try to solve this conundrum as my game yesterday was off.

There are two distinct lines of information on this -

[1] http://www.fchd.info/MAIDSTOU.HTM states the following -

MAIDSTONE UNITED
1894-95 Founder member of Kent League Relegated to Division Two
1895-96 Two games not played Promoted to Division One as Division Two left with reserve sides only SEASON LEAGUE P W D L F A P POS
1894-95 KENT-1 16 1 1 14 14 84 3 9/9
1895-96 KENT-2 14 4 2 8 28 32 10 6/9
1896-97 KENT-1 16 4 5 7 29 40 13 7/9

also http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/engkenthist.htmlgives the following League table -
FINAL TABLE KENT LEAGUE (DIVISION 1) 1896-97
1. Woolwich Arsenal II 16-29 (81-11) 13 3 0 Champions/left
2. Folkestone 16-24 (46-21) 10 4 2
3. Sittingbourne 16-18 (30-33) 8 2 6
4. Dover AFC 16-15 (36-30) 7 3 6
5. Ashford United 16-15 (33-34) 5 5 6
6. Faversham 16-14 (35-43) 5 4 7
7. Maidstone United 16-13 (29-40) 4 5 7
8. Cray Wanderers 16-13 (44-37) 6 1 9
9. Maidstone Institute 16- 1 ( 8-84) 0 1 15 left

[2] Dover's website http://talesftre.tripod.com/doverafc18911900/id6.htmlstates that Maidstone United's did not finish 7th but it was Maidstone Invicta. In addition, that same web site gives the table that I quoted as being Kent League Division 2 for season 1896-97 as being the East Kent League Division 1.

Judging by your views [2] is right.

Dylan's Dad
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Feb 2, 2009, 8:33 AM

Posts: 359
Location: The Black Country
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Re: [pitch 63] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Having re-read the centenary book a little more closely, it does indeed say that it was the reserves who won KL Div 2 in 1897.....

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

Dylan's Dad
Youth Team Star

Feb 3, 2009, 12:48 PM

Posts: 359
Location: The Black Country
Team(s): Gillingham

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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Back when I first raised this, another user PM'ed me these tables for the Kent League 1896-97:

Division 1 p w d l f a pts Woolwich Arsenal res 16 13 3 0 81 11 29 Folkestone 16 10 4 2 46 21 24 Sittingbourne 16 8 2 6 30 33 18 Dover (-2pts) 16 7 3 6 39 32 15 Ashford 16 5 5 6 33 34 15 Faversham 16 5 4 7 38 45 14 Cray Wanderers 16 6 1 9 44 37 13 Maidstone Invicta 16 4 5 7 29 41 13 Maidstone C.I. 16 0 1 15 9 95 1

Division 2 p w d l f a pts New Brompton res 10 8 1 1 50 9 17 Sittingbourne res 10 8 1 1 47 11 17 Faversham res 10 4 3 3 21 26 11 Cray Wanderers res 10 2 2 6 19 31 6 Folkestone res 10 1 3 6 10 53 5 Herne Bay 10 1 2 7 9 26 4 60 24 12 24 156 156 60

That would appear to answer the Maidstone query, but appears to confirm once again that there are apparently two completely different tables in circulation for KL Div 2 for that season. Bizarre.........

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

robgrillo
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Feb 3, 2009, 2:57 PM

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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Maybe there were 2 sections to div2 ?? 'A' & 'B' ? Regionalised ?

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Dylan's Dad
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Feb 3, 2009, 3:15 PM

Posts: 359
Location: The Black Country
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Re: [robgrillo] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Maybe there were 2 sections to div2 ?? 'A' & 'B' ? Regionalised ?

Half of the teams are the same in both tables, though......

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

robgrillo
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Feb 3, 2009, 3:19 PM

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Post #9 of 14 (1803 views)
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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In that case I have added nothing at all to his thread ! apologies !! Blush

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Lily White
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Mar 5, 2009, 11:58 PM

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Post #10 of 14 (1548 views)
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Re: [robgrillo] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Kent League and the East Kent League were separate Leagues, and they each had a Division Two for a few seasons. Many clubs were in both Leagues.
Maidstone Invicta changed its name to Maidstone United, but Maidstone Church Institute was another club, which returned to the Kent League in 1905.
New Brompton played their first team in the KL Div.1 in 1895-96, and their reserves in Div.2 in 1896-97. In 1897-98 another club, New Brompton Excelsior, played in Div.2.

Dylan's Dad
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Mar 26, 2009, 12:55 PM

Posts: 359
Location: The Black Country
Team(s): Gillingham

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Re: [Lily White] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just noticed another one - Sittingbourne claim on their official website that they won the KL title in 1897-98, but FCHD and RSSSF both say they came third..........

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

Lily White
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Mar 27, 2009, 12:20 AM

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Post #12 of 14 (1410 views)
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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sittingbourne finished third in the Kent League Division One in 1897-98, but their reserves came top of Division Two.

Dylan's Dad
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Mar 27, 2009, 8:14 AM

Posts: 359
Location: The Black Country
Team(s): Gillingham

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Re: [Lily White] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

Sittingbourne finished third in the Kent League Division One in 1897-98, but their reserves came top of Division Two.

Maybe their club historian's just trying to see how much truth stretching he can get away with then Wink

Certainly their official site states "The Kent League was formed in 1894/95, and the club had a team in each of the two divisions although the first team also played a large number of games against opponents outside of the League, including Arsenal, Millwall and the Orient. Sittingbourne won the Kent League in 1897/98, their first major title, while professionalism was adopted during the 1898/99 season."

La la la
La la la
Life is football
-- Robb Johnson

Goonerak
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Jun 23, 2012, 1:07 PM

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Team(s): Royal Arsenal / Woolwich Arsenal

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Re: [Dylan's Dad] Kent League in the 1890s [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The first team / reserve team problem was caused by Woolwich Arsenal.

The Kent FA recognised professionalism in early 1895 which then meant that Arsenal could play in the Kent League. As they were, by then, playing in the Football League they requested that they enter their reserves into the Kent League which the Kent FA agreed to. The Kent FA insisted that the other teams play their first teams.

During 1895-96 Woolwich Arsenal fielded their reserves in the Kent League except for the two games against Chatham and the game at New Brompton.

Chatham and New Brompton were not happy with this arrangement as they were fielding their first team in the Southern League and wanted the same dispensation as Arsenal but were not allowed to do so. They resigned mid-season but were re-instated after the Kent League climbed down.

This casued further problems with the other members of the Kent League during 1896-97 and they voted that from 1897-98 only first teams would be allowed to played in the Kent League. Woolwich Arsenal had to withdraw as too many dates clashed with Football League fixtures.

Woolwich Arsenal reserves were back in the Kent League in 1898-99 so I assume that they bigger teams were, once again, allowed to play their reserves teams.

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