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Barney Rubble
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Aug 18, 2008, 12:14 PM

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Essex Senior League	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think it’s most disappointed that this league has level 5 status. There is only 16 sides in the league so it has to be one of the easiest leagues to win. London ASPA came bottom last year on 10 points yet were reprieved.
How can the FA justify that the winners go up from this league. Look at the FA Cup results this week, with on 5/6 sides progressing, and 4 teams with heavy defeats. This league is obviously sub standard.

ladderman
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Aug 18, 2008, 1:33 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

This has been extensively debated in the restructuring forum.
But if you're going to judge a league on one round of the FA Cup, then the ESL is average. Five winners, five losers and one side drawing. How is that (obviously) sub-standard?
The ESL could have had 18 clubs this season if Wivenhoe (an ex ESL club) had been relegated into it rather than the Eastern Counties League, and if Clacton had been allowed to switch from the ECL.
It has also provided a great pathway for clubs to rise up the pyramid. No clubs missed out on promotion due to the ESL last season, and three sides who should have been relegated from step 4 were reprieved.

TB&G
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Aug 18, 2008, 1:55 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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I must step! in here to comment. Definitely 5 and possibly 6 going through out of a possible 12 entrance because 4 of the ESL 16 this season were not able to enter for various reasons.

That, if my maths are working OK, gives the ESL a definite 42% and possible 50% through to the next round which ain't bad.

How did the other Step 5 clubs fare on the same basis over the weekend?

Oh, and by the way, ESL clubs did quite well in the Vase last season too if you check the stats!!

JP
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:01 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm guessing you've signed up on purpose to have a moan about the ESL, judging by the content and this being your first post, here's a few of my thoughts from someone who spent 2 seasons coaching in the ESL.

Firstly, no, it is definitely not one of the easiest leagues to win...just because there are less sides does not make the league 'easier' to win at all, Barkingisde, who were top on the morning of the last day of the season actually finished 3rd - it was that competitive.

The ESL is a victim of it's own success. Look through the pyramid for examples of how often it manages to promote ambitious clubs. Go from BSP down for lots of examples of why they are often lacking in clubs, loads going up - but hardly any ever come down.

Your comment about London APSA is a little odd...I know there is no Step 6 but did the Ridgeons League bottom side go down, or the Kent League, or Combined Counties etc etc...

Also, you mention about how can the winners go up from this 'sub standard' league. Brentwood didn't do badly did they? Nor did current Ryman Premier side AFC Hornchurch on their promotion?

Also, what would you do with for example, Southend Manor FC if there were no ESL? Ridgeons, no, Kent League, no, Combined Counties, no. But then they couldn't be Step 6 of course because it would be Step 6-Step 4? Just a few thoughts for you. Welcome to the forum.

Sarumio
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:11 PM

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Re: [JP] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

I'm guessing you've signed up on purpose to have a moan about the ESL, judging by the content and this being your first post, here's a few of my thoughts from someone who spent 2 seasons coaching in the ESL.

Firstly, no, it is definitely not one of the easiest leagues to win...just because there are less sides does not make the league 'easier' to win at all, Barkingisde, who were top on the morning of the last day of the season actually finished 3rd - it was that competitive.

The ESL is a victim of it's own success. Look through the pyramid for examples of how often it manages to promote ambitious clubs. Go from BSP down for lots of examples of why they are often lacking in clubs, loads going up - but hardly any ever come down.

Your comment about London APSA is a little odd...I know there is no Step 6 but did the Ridgeons League bottom side go down, or the Kent League, or Combined Counties etc etc...

Also, you mention about how can the winners go up from this 'sub standard' league. Brentwood didn't do badly did they? Nor did current Ryman Premier side AFC Hornchurch on their promotion?

Also, what would you do with for example, Southend Manor FC if there were no ESL? Ridgeons, no, Kent League, no, Combined Counties, no. But then they couldn't be Step 6 of course because it would be Step 6-Step 4? Just a few thoughts for you. Welcome to the forum.

We're talking Step 5 here - so yes the bottom teams in both the CoCo and the Eastern Counties League's step 5 divisions went down last season.

JP
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:15 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I know, but what do you suggest, play with 15 teams and relegate a side with lights, stands etc to Step 7 football?

I know that's putting words in your mouth, but the point I'm making is that was always going to be the case until there is a Step 6 in Essex.

Hornet
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:37 PM

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Re: [JP] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or

Round my area there is a hole league with floodlights and stands in step 7 it's called the Central Midlands League supreme div.

hawkwind
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:43 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In Reply To

I'm guessing you've signed up on purpose to have a moan about the ESL, judging by the content and this being your first post, here's a few of my thoughts from someone who spent 2 seasons coaching in the ESL.

Firstly, no, it is definitely not one of the easiest leagues to win...just because there are less sides does not make the league 'easier' to win at all, Barkingisde, who were top on the morning of the last day of the season actually finished 3rd - it was that competitive.

The ESL is a victim of it's own success. Look through the pyramid for examples of how often it manages to promote ambitious clubs. Go from BSP down for lots of examples of why they are often lacking in clubs, loads going up - but hardly any ever come down.

Your comment about London APSA is a little odd...I know there is no Step 6 but did the Ridgeons League bottom side go down, or the Kent League, or Combined Counties etc etc...

Also, you mention about how can the winners go up from this 'sub standard' league. Brentwood didn't do badly did they? Nor did current Ryman Premier side AFC Hornchurch on their promotion?

Also, what would you do with for example, Southend Manor FC if there were no ESL? Ridgeons, no, Kent League, no, Combined Counties, no. But then they couldn't be Step 6 of course because it would be Step 6-Step 4? Just a few thoughts for you. Welcome to the forum.

We're talking Step 5 here - so yes the bottom teams in both the CoCo and the Eastern Counties League's step 5 divisions went down last season.

OK so another "let's bash Essex thread" hits the forum.

Ignoring what happens at Step 6 removes context and thus distorts the truth. Almost all of the Step 5 leagues keep the clubs that finish at the bottom of their leagues - which is either at Step 5, Step 6 or Step 7.

Let's lay out the facts for each of the Step 5 Leagues taking their bottom division at end 2007-08.

Step 5: Essex Senior, Kent, Midland Alliance. Total clubs relegated. Zero.
Step 6: Northern, NCE, NWC, UCO, HELL, WEST, WSSX, ECO, COCO. Total clubs relegated. Would I be right in saying that Merrow were the sole club or did they resign?
Step 7: SSM, SUSSEX. Total clubs relegated. Zero.

Barney Rubble
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Aug 18, 2008, 2:46 PM

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Re: [JP] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

With a division of 16 means you have 30 league games. This means very few midweek games, therefore a smaller squad is necessary (budget stretches less etc). If you add another 6 sides in line with most of the other leagues then the law of averages would say at least 2 decent sides added to the mix.

Why were the other sides not playing in the FA Cup?

4 got comprehensively beaten, only Romford winning comfortably.

There are some good sides in the league and it has great history but it is definitely on the decline. 16 teams being the main point.

The Kent league is not far off it either.

Feel sorry for teams who will slug it out all year to come a close 2nd, not go up, when they would have romped the ESL in 30 games.

SE No.1
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Aug 18, 2008, 3:23 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Personally, I think that at Step 5 18 Clubs in the league should be the norm/Max 20.

I dont think it's easier to win a league because you play 4/6/8 games less then another league. It just means that you have to be on your game more often and cant afford to lose anymore then 3/4 games if you want to win the league.

[I know this comment really should be in re-structuring, but] Too much emphasis is put on leagues to achive this optimum level / Holy Grail of 22 clubs in the leagues. With gradings etc this is a unrealistic target unless major funding is granted (and even then you have local authority to deal with) in some geographical areas.

Unicorn
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Aug 18, 2008, 3:35 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not again. How many more times is this Essex bashing theme coming up.
Both Essex and Kent are working with the FA to try to create step 6 divisions. I understand that a final decision will be made by the end of this year.
If the step 6 leagues are brought in then the problem is beginning to be solved if not then i would agree that both leagues status is in question.
Please until then stop the witch hunt.

Ballboy and water carrier.

Barney Rubble
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Aug 18, 2008, 3:54 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

Maybe look at 13 divisions of 20 next season reducting to 12 of 22 the following.

3 extra teams promoted to take all step 4 divisions to 22.
bottom 3 in each step 5 relegated
Step 6 side promoted only if ground ok and finish in top 2/3

That would definately strengthen step 5.

Eventually, 4 from each step 4 division down, top 2 step 5 go up (if gradings ok etc).

With Essex only being 16 sides, including 1 from step 7, and London ASPA (10 points) I feel promotion should be susspended this year.

Unicorn
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Aug 18, 2008, 4:03 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I believe i am correct in saying that the FA have no power to scrap leagues or merge them against their wishes.
Therefore i can only refer you back to what i said. Step 6 under discussion
so we must wait and see.

Ballboy and water carrier.

cope1
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Aug 18, 2008, 4:42 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

In case anyone's interested these are the stats from last season's Vase and FAC (going by the archives on this site). They suggest Essex are not amongst the stronger leagues but there are weaker out there.

LGE/DIV P W L Pct
---------------------------------
EASTP 90 53 37 .59
NL1 107 63 44 .59
WESSP 88 51 37 .58
KENT 64 36 28 .56
MID 100 56 44 .56
NCEP 83 45 38 .54
UCLP 85 45 40 .53
WESTP 86 44 42 .51
SUSS1 71 36 35 .51
COCOP 88 44 44 .50
ESL 55 27 28 .49
SSMP 81 38 43 .47
NWC1 73 34 39 .47
HELLP 69 31 38 .45

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

Barney Rubble
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Aug 18, 2008, 5:52 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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Surely the FA could threaten their step 5 status though?

Russell
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Aug 18, 2008, 6:03 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

An important point here is that the Essex Senior League have been victims of their own success as they have supplied so many good clubs to the Ryman league over the years. That is why the Essex set up is depleted. It urgently needs a lower division to facilitate up and coming feeder clubs.

Geoff
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Aug 18, 2008, 6:32 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

"How can the FA justify that the winners go up from this league."
Easy, the Essex Senior League has an unmatched record for promoting clubs which have gone on to further success at higher levels among level 5 leagues.
In repect of a lack of relegation, does this mean that we should scrap the conference and other leagues where clubs who consistently finish in a relegation position (Altrincham) are reprieved?
As a matter of interest, how many ESL teams have you seen play in the last couple of years?
Is your "obviously sub standard" comment based on personal experience or simply this weekend's results from the paper?

Unicorn
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Aug 18, 2008, 7:15 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think i covered this in my first reply.
Yes if the proposed step 6 leagues fall through the status of Kent and Essex could be under review but i dont think that will happen and both leagues will survive at step 5/6.
What will be will be.

Ballboy and water carrier.

ladderman
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Aug 19, 2008, 9:36 AM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

The fact that you are pulling random numbers out of mid-air - 13 leagues is just convenient rather than taking into account geography - shows you don't really understand the sitituation.
As does the fact you don't seem to know that the ESL clubs play an addditional six games in the league cup (and have a separate knockout cup), so that's the equalivalent of a 19 team league, game-wise.
As does the fact that most clubs pay players by the week (if, indeed, they even pay their players) meanthat less gamescan be as much a disadvantage as an advantage.

But what does seem clear is that you've registered & started posting on here simply to bad-mouth a league which consistantly plays a full part in the football pyramid. So I guess facts aren't going to get in the way, with you.

Barney Rubble
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Aug 19, 2008, 9:40 AM

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Re: [Geoff] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

I've seen a handful of games but I have a few pals who play for Enfield who say it's not good quality anymore.

I agree with the history, no one can deny that but it is rapidly on the decline.

In my eyes its clearly not fair to compete against 15 other sides for 1 spot when most other leagues have 20+.

SuperKev!
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Aug 19, 2008, 9:58 AM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

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So who do you blame for this? I bet it isn't the same people you would like to see punished through your idea of no promotion this season!

cope1
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Aug 19, 2008, 10:26 AM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

At present the pyramid proper could be said to end at step 4 as the promotion/relegation between that and step 5 is so erratic as to be more akin to election/re-election. With this in mind it is pointless talking about numbers as the amount of eligible teams is not known until near the end of the season.

Aside from that, how do you justify denying a team the chance to progress because there aren't enough teams BELOW them? Surely the only thing stopping them should be the teams ABOVE them? If they're not up to scratch they'll fall back soon enough and, as has been pointed out above (and statistics strongly support) the ESL clubs do quite well on promotion to step 4.

If you're looking for a new website for your club, league or any other organisation give me a shout at www.acwebcreations.net.

ladderman
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Aug 19, 2008, 10:37 AM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

that'll the Enfield who weren't good enough to win it last season, and were stuffed on opening day ? The same Enfield who are fortunate that the ESL is short of clubs.
Your claim that 16 clubs is too few is completely arbitary. presumably that extra club in the Kent League means that they should retain their promotion rights .
Could you justify your statement that the ESL is rapidly on the decline - with (correct) facts

Unicorn
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Aug 19, 2008, 12:24 PM

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Re: [Barney Rubble] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

You seem to keep missing the point that the whole situation is being dealt with.
The plan is that from next season both Kent and Essex will have a step 6 league thus easing promotion requirements and within a couple of seasons they will be a the same strength as all the other leagues at step 5.
There is no point proposing the destruction of the Essex league when we all know plans are well advanced to make it bigger.

Ballboy and water carrier.

Barney Rubble
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Aug 19, 2008, 1:07 PM

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Re: [Unicorn] Essex Senior League [In reply to]	Can't Post or Reply Privately

As long as plans are in place that are stuck to.

There is a lot of dead wood at step 5 who'd be better off dropping down to step 6.

i just think as its way off the numbers of the other leagues its unfair. Its basically 14 sides, plus 2 joke teams. The Kent league is similar but I dont know enough on that to comment.

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