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Home: Non-League Football: Restructuring:
Northern League should expand it's boundaries?

 



davidlancs
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Jul 7, 2008, 9:29 PM

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Northern League should expand it's boundaries? Can't Post or Reply Privately

With the Northern League already hosting Penrith, and accepting Whitehaven into it's Division 1, is this a sign of the times that the NL should expand it's boundaries to cover a geographic area simliar to it's counterparts, the NCEL and NWCL. For too long, the NL has been a restricted geographical area, and Cumbria has been an outpost, without a league of it's own. Teams in the extreme North West have been seen as an inconveniences to those in the Lancashire/Merseyside/Manchester North West.

Is this the way forward? - should the Northern league expand it's boundaries westward?

Perhaps Holker Old Boys -from Barrow -(NWCL2 - step 6) might be better paced in the Northern League - along with Carlisle City, Harraby Catholic Club and Northbank Carlisle from the Northern Alliance (step 7); Cleator Moor and Dalton United from the West Lancs Prem (also step 7)

Below that in West Lancs 1 (step 8) are BAE Barrow, Furness Rovers, Millom, and Vickerstown CC...

Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Look at the populations of the following Cumbrian / West Northumbrian towns who surely could sustain either a first or secondary non-league team -

Carlisle - 100,800
Barrow - 57,000
Workington - 28,500
Whitehaven - 24,000
Penrith - 14,000
Hexham - 11,300
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300
Cockermouth - 8,500
Egremont - 8,000
Wigton - 5,400
Keswick - 4,300
Carnforth - 4,300
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000

Haltwhistle, Sedbergh, Aspatria, Appleby and Silloth all have populations of more than 3,000 too.

Other than the largest five of these towns, none have a non-league side to represent themselves anywhwere in the pyramid - and I sense a lot of that is due to the lack of promotion of the Cumbrian FA. Certainly, the predomination of rugby league is a factor, but the elevation of football in the region by the Cumbrian FA is obvioulsly lacking...


A "Northern League" that covers the true "North" of the country would surly benefit the pyramid system tremendously. Is there anyone here from the North who would want, or could instigate such a change?


Steveb
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Jul 7, 2008, 9:41 PM

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Re: [davidlancs] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Well for a start there is no "Cumbrian FA". The area you're talking about is covered by the Cumberland FA, Westmorland FA and the Lancashire FA. There are already county leagues in Cumberland and Westmorland, and the West Lancs League is effectively a county league for the Lancashire FA.



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davidlancs
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Jul 7, 2008, 9:45 PM

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In Reply To

Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Well for a start there is no "Cumbrian FA". The area you're talking about is covered by the Cumberland FA, Westmorland FA and the Lancashire FA. There are already county leagues in Cumberland and Westmorland, and the West Lancs League is effectively a county league for the Lancashire FA.

Perhaps there lies the problem?


mick
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Jul 7, 2008, 10:04 PM

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Re: [davidlancs] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

..... why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Probably because there is no such thing as the Cumbrian FAFrown Clubs are affiliated to the Cumberland, Westmorland or Lancashire FAs (plus a couple in Yorkshire).

The Northern League have always accepted clubs from the Northern Alliance (which covers the Carlisle area) and Wearside (Whitehaven etc) where their facilities are up to scratch.

The Furness clubs are in Lancashire, so naturally look to the West Lancs League & the NWCFL. Barrow is about 2 hours from Manchester, but more like 3 from Newcastle.

Edit: Steve obviously beat me to it. I still don't really see what 'the problem' is.


(This post was edited by mick on Jul 7, 2008, 10:09 PM)


Terrierdave
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Jul 8, 2008, 8:49 AM

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Perhaps Holker Old Boys -from Barrow -(NWCL2 - step 6) might be better paced in the Northern League

A "Northern League" that covers the true "North" of the country would surly benefit the pyramid system tremendously. Is there anyone here from the North who would want, or could instigate such a change?


Er, you are joking aren't you? 3 hour journeys at Step 5/6?! I've been to nearby Dalton before so I know what the journey and roads are like - the 'North West' area is most easily accessible via the M6 while our transport infrastructure is laughable


hucknallite
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Re: [Terrierdave] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem is that the main area of the Northern League is densely populated with most of the population living in a few urban areas. Over half the people in the North East live in Tyneside, Teesside & Sunderland Urban areas. But then you have ruddy great areas of not much before the next big population centres, i.e. Northumberland National Park, North York Moors, Yorkshire Dales, Forest of Bowland, North Pennines. And there is nothing anyone can do about this. The North East, like Cornwall will always be isolated to a certain extent by geography.


drastic
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Jul 9, 2008, 8:59 AM

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Post #7 of 19 (3314 views)
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Re: [davidlancs] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Look at the populations of the following Cumbrian / West Northumbrian towns who surely could sustain either a first or secondary non-league team -

Carlisle - 100,800
Barrow - 57,000
Workington - 28,500
Whitehaven - 24,000
Penrith - 14,000
Hexham - 11,300
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300
Cockermouth - 8,500
Egremont - 8,000
Wigton - 5,400
Keswick - 4,300
Carnforth - 4,300
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000

Haltwhistle, Sedbergh, Aspatria, Appleby and Silloth all have populations of more than 3,000 too.

I think that the very North-West of England would benefit themselves and the non-league pyramid by having a step 5 feeder league which can feed directly into the Northern Premier League (Div1 North). However the total population of the above towns stands at around the 300k mark. I don't know how that compares to other Step 5 leagues but it seems like a relatively small population, and whether there are enough clubs around to fulfill Step 5 criteria is another question. However if even a small league of say 14-16 teams could be initially raised with the idea of building the numbers I believe it could be tremendously beneficial to the overall balance of the pyramid and perhaps would reduce calls for South-Eastern Step 5 leagues to be merged/reduced/scrapped.


(This post was edited by drastic on Jul 9, 2008, 9:11 AM)


acmold
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Jul 9, 2008, 10:08 AM

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Post #8 of 19 (3291 views)
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Re: [drastic] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Look at the populations of the following Cumbrian / West Northumbrian towns who surely could sustain either a first or secondary non-league team -

Carlisle - 100,800
Barrow - 57,000
Workington - 28,500
Whitehaven - 24,000
Penrith - 14,000
Hexham - 11,300
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300
Cockermouth - 8,500
Egremont - 8,000
Wigton - 5,400
Keswick - 4,300
Carnforth - 4,300
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000

Haltwhistle, Sedbergh, Aspatria, Appleby and Silloth all have populations of more than 3,000 too.

I think that the very North-West of England would benefit themselves and the non-league pyramid by having a step 5 feeder league which can feed directly into the Northern Premier League (Div1 North). However the total population of the above towns stands at around the 300k mark. I don't know how that compares to other Step 5 leagues but it seems like a relatively small population, and whether there are enough clubs around to fulfill Step 5 criteria is another question. However if even a small league of say 14-16 teams could be initially raised with the idea of building the numbers I believe it could be tremendously beneficial to the overall balance of the pyramid and perhaps would reduce calls for South-Eastern Step 5 leagues to be merged/reduced/scrapped.



Many of the shire countys of middle England outside the large population urban areas have populations of double that figure, Bucks (686k inc MK), Oxfordshire (605k) and Northants (630k), Glos (565k excluding Bristol), Wiltshire (613k inc Swindon) - figures mostly from 2001 census, many of these will have risen since then.

In 2001 England was around 50 million people and we have 14 step five leagues. 3.5 million is around average, though some are much higher some lower.



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drastic
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Jul 9, 2008, 1:54 PM

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Post #9 of 19 (3199 views)
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Re: [acmold] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Many of the shire countys of middle England outside the large population urban areas have populations of double that figure, Bucks (686k inc MK), Oxfordshire (605k) and Northants (630k), Glos (565k excluding Bristol), Wiltshire (613k inc Swindon) - figures mostly from 2001 census, many of these will have risen since then.

In 2001 England was around 50 million people and we have 14 step five leagues. 3.5 million is around average, though some are much higher some lower.


Wikipedia lists the population of Cumbria as 498'800. This brings it closer to the counties mentioned above but still well below the average 3.5 million for the 14 Step 5 leagues (although the introduction of a new Step 5 would reduce that average to 3.33 million, just to be pedantic). However I am assuming that some Step 5 Leagues have survived with considerably less then the average population to draw on so it is down to whether the area has enough clubs at required ground grading. Perhaps it would help to encroach on Durham/Northumberland and possibly pick up a few teams and leave the teams on the very North-Eastern edge for the Northern League?


Harley
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Aug 10, 2008, 11:17 PM

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Post #10 of 19 (2652 views)
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Re: [davidlancs] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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With the Northern League already hosting Penrith, and accepting Whitehaven into it's Division 1, is this a sign of the times that the NL should expand it's boundaries to cover a geographic area simliar to it's counterparts, the NCEL and NWCL. For too long, the NL has been a restricted geographical area, and Cumbria has been an outpost, without a league of it's own. Teams in the extreme North West have been seen as an inconveniences to those in the Lancashire/Merseyside/Manchester North West.

Is this the way forward? - should the Northern league expand it's boundaries westward?

Perhaps Holker Old Boys -from Barrow -(NWCL2 - step 6) might be better paced in the Northern League - along with Carlisle City, Harraby Catholic Club and Northbank Carlisle from the Northern Alliance (step 7) sorry, what about Gillford Park?; Cleator Moor and Dalton United from the West Lancs Prem (also step 7) for a start Cleator Moor Celtic are in the Wearside, and what about Windscale too?

Below that in West Lancs 1 (step 8) are BAE Barrow, Furness Rovers, Millom, and Vickerstown CC...

Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Look at the populations of the following Cumbrian / West Northumbrian towns who surely could sustain either a first or secondary non-league team -

Carlisle - 100,800
Barrow - 57,000
Workington - 28,500
Whitehaven - 24,000
Penrith - 14,000
Hexham - 11,300
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300
Cockermouth - 8,500
Egremont - 8,000
Wigton - 5,400
Keswick - 4,300
Carnforth - 4,300
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000

Haltwhistle, Sedbergh, Aspatria, Appleby and Silloth all have populations of more than 3,000 too.

Other than the largest five of these towns, none have a non-league side to represent themselves anywhwere in the pyramid really? what about:

Hexham - 11,300 Hexham FC - Northern Alliance
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300 Netherhall - Cumberland County
Cockermouth - 8,500 Cockermouth - Cumberland County
Egremont - 8,000 Windscale - Wearside League
Wigton - 5,400 Wigton Harriers - Cumberland County
Keswick - 4,300 Keswick - Westmorland League
Carnforth - 4,300 Carnforth - North Lancs - Millhead - North Lancs
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000


- and I sense a lot of that is due to the lack of promotion of the Cumbrian FA. Certainly, the predomination of rugby league is a factor, but the elevation of football in the region by the Cumbrian FA is obvioulsly lacking...


A "Northern League" that covers the true "North" of the country would surly benefit the pyramid system tremendously. Is there anyone here from the North who would want, or could instigate such a change?

To be perfectly honest, only small changes are needed and I'd suggest these are more alterations in attitude than restructuring. The Northern League happily accepts Cumbrian members, as do its feeders the Northern Alliance and the Wearside League. The creation of a Cumbrian feeder would, indeed, cut costs for current Cumrian members of the NA/Wearside leagues, but who - aside from the six members of those leagues and, perhaps, Netherhall - do you propose join it. Already teams are fighting over a relatively small pool of players, without needlessly creating more, less sustainable, outfits.




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Gray
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Aug 12, 2008, 8:53 PM

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Post #11 of 19 (2421 views)
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Re: [Harley] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
With the Northern League already hosting Penrith, and accepting Whitehaven into it's Division 1, is this a sign of the times that the NL should expand it's boundaries to cover a geographic area simliar to it's counterparts, the NCEL and NWCL. For too long, the NL has been a restricted geographical area, and Cumbria has been an outpost, without a league of it's own. Teams in the extreme North West have been seen as an inconveniences to those in the Lancashire/Merseyside/Manchester North West.

Is this the way forward? - should the Northern league expand it's boundaries westward?

Perhaps Holker Old Boys -from Barrow -(NWCL2 - step 6) might be better paced in the Northern League - along with Carlisle City, Harraby Catholic Club and Northbank Carlisle from the Northern Alliance (step 7) sorry, what about Gillford Park?; Cleator Moor and Dalton United from the West Lancs Prem (also step 7) for a start Cleator Moor Celtic are in the Wearside, and what about Windscale too?

Below that in West Lancs 1 (step 8) are BAE Barrow, Furness Rovers, Millom, and Vickerstown CC...

Other than that, why have the Cumbrian FA not had the foresight to create their own league as a feeder to the Northern League?

Look at the populations of the following Cumbrian / West Northumbrian towns who surely could sustain either a first or secondary non-league team -

Carlisle - 100,800
Barrow - 57,000
Workington - 28,500
Whitehaven - 24,000
Penrith - 14,000
Hexham - 11,300
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300
Cockermouth - 8,500
Egremont - 8,000
Wigton - 5,400
Keswick - 4,300
Carnforth - 4,300
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000

Haltwhistle, Sedbergh, Aspatria, Appleby and Silloth all have populations of more than 3,000 too.

Other than the largest five of these towns, none have a non-league side to represent themselves anywhwere in the pyramid really? what about:

Hexham - 11,300 Hexham FC - Northern Alliance
Ulverston - 11,200
Maryport - 9,300 Netherhall - Cumberland County
Cockermouth - 8,500 Cockermouth - Cumberland County
Egremont - 8,000 Windscale - Wearside League
Wigton - 5,400 Wigton Harriers - Cumberland County
Keswick - 4,300 Keswick - Westmorland League
Carnforth - 4,300 Carnforth - North Lancs - Millhead - North Lancs
Distington - 4,200
Grange-over-Sands - 4,000
Brampton - 4,000


- and I sense a lot of that is due to the lack of promotion of the Cumbrian FA. Certainly, the predomination of rugby league is a factor, but the elevation of football in the region by the Cumbrian FA is obvioulsly lacking...


A "Northern League" that covers the true "North" of the country would surly benefit the pyramid system tremendously. Is there anyone here from the North who would want, or could instigate such a change?

To be perfectly honest, only small changes are needed and I'd suggest these are more alterations in attitude than restructuring. The Northern League happily accepts Cumbrian members, as do its feeders the Northern Alliance and the Wearside League. The creation of a Cumbrian feeder would, indeed, cut costs for current Cumrian members of the NA/Wearside leagues, but who - aside from the six members of those leagues and, perhaps, Netherhall - do you propose join it. Already teams are fighting over a relatively small pool of players, without needlessly creating more, less sustainable, outfits.



I do agree with you that a Cumbrian League at Step 7 feedering the Northern League would be a welcome development. However, I guess the problem is that there isn't a "Cumbrian" Fa that are is covered by the Cumberland, Westmorland, Lancashire & North Ridings FAs.



forestman
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Oct 31, 2008, 2:49 AM

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Re: [Gray] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You seem to be missing GSK Ulveston Rangers and Milnthorpe Corinthians both of the West Lancashire League


rdp
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Oct 31, 2008, 2:44 PM

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Re: [forestman] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Non League football in the North East has not done too well out of the pyramid. The Northern league used to be far stronger. What is need is a sensible restructuring that benefits clubs in the North east and yorkshire. If there was a conference north and south. Then there could be 4 leagues below. One for the North West,One for the North East,One for the South East and one for the South West/midlands.
Under the North West you could have a Cumbrian league!


KnowYourMarket
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Oct 31, 2008, 3:26 PM

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Re: [rdp] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thats a marvellous idea! Do you realise the split of England's population is not spread evenly across the country.



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rdp
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Re: [modelhobbies] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Of course. But that just means ome areas eg the South East would be smaller in area than others eg the North East.
I think a re-organisation could work along the following lines.

Scrapping the National Conference and replacing with a Conference south and conference north.

4 Leagues at the step below that North West, North East,South East and South West/ Midlands.

8 Leagues below that NW N, NW S, NE N, NE S, SE E, SE W, Midland le, South Western League.

Its just an opinion but in my view clubs need more local derbies and less travelling.
This would cut down on travelling costs for clubs and hopefully help increase crowds.
I think some kind of restructuring is inevitable.


acmold
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Oct 31, 2008, 6:48 PM

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Re: [rdp] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Non League football in the North East has not done too well out of the pyramid. The Northern league used to be far stronger. What is need is a sensible restructuring that benefits clubs in the North east and yorkshire. If there was a conference north and south. Then there could be 4 leagues below. One for the North West,One for the North East,One for the South East and one for the South West/midlands.
Under the North West you could have a Cumbrian league!

Might work on the west side of the country. But the boundary for the North East / South East would be Stevenage or Bishops Stortford.




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rdp
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Oct 31, 2008, 7:08 PM

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Re: [acmold] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not if the South Conference feeder leagues were: A South Eastern League and a South West and Midlands League.


Dr Love
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Re: [rdp] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Assuming the number of clubs relates to the population the dividing line between north and south would presumably run somewhere to the south of Birmingham. As acmold says if you split the country east/west and then subdivided those you would end up with some very southerly clubs in the northern section. By drawing a fixed line further north you are going to be effectively relegating south eastern teams in order to favour those in the north east.

If four leagues were instituted at one step to cover the country, the fairest given the shape of the country/population density/club availability/road network would have moveable boundaries and consist of north (around Manchester upwards, with the M62 linking east/west), midlands (to somewhere south of Birmingham), south west (probably stretching to close to the M25) and south east (whatever is left).

That could be modified slightly, but a northeastern club is going to have to face longer than average trips to be able to compete at that level. Same as pretty much any club at the extremities of the country will do.

Even with the quarters above, an easier link running from Norwich to Gloucester (via Cambridge, Milton Keynes and Chipping Norton) coupled with better links between Essex and Kent would help.


forestman
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Nov 1, 2008, 2:32 AM

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Re: [rdp] Northern League should expand it's boundaries? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

|What you suggest was the original proposed structure see my thread 'restructuring'

 
 


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