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Home: Non League Football Information: FA Competitions:
new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup

 



seadog41
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Jul 1, 2008, 3:37 PM

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new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup Can't Post or Reply Privately

I notice that the reformed clubs at Halifax & Nuneaton are included in the FA Cup draw.

When my club reformed we had enter the North Riding Senior Cup and then wait 2 seasons before we could enter the FA Vase and wait 3 seasons before we could enter the FA Cup.

So I was surprised to see two reformed clubs entered in the FA Cup within weeks of the old clubs going under.

Please don't get me wrong, If these two new clubs are in the FA Cup then I wish them both well, but I am scratching my head as to why my team has had to wait three seasons.

Perhaps someone on here knows the answer to this apparent anomaly.



Trust Member Scarborough Athletic FC



oftenscore6
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Jul 1, 2008, 4:00 PM

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Post #2 of 25 (6089 views)
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Re: [seadog41] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Doesn't sound very equal!

I know when FCUM started in NWC2 (ie the equivalent of NCE1), we could not have entered the FA Cup until we had played in either the FA Trophy (for which we were not eligible) or the FA Vase. We tried to enter the FA Vase, but at that time as 'FC United' ie without the 'of Manchester'. The FA knocked us back on the grounds that the club name was too generic, so our first FA Vase season was a year later and our FA Cup debut was last season.

I can't see any reason why you should need to spend any more time before entering the FA Vase, when we didn't. I seem to recall that Scarborough (original incarnation) were drawn in last year's competition but then the other team given a walkover. So perhaps that prevented you last season, but it certainly seems strange to allow Nuneaton to compete this year (but then should Leeds should have been denied an FA Cup entry last year too?).



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seadog41
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Jul 1, 2008, 4:15 PM

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Post #3 of 25 (6076 views)
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Re: [oftenscore6] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The old Scarborough FC were indeed drawn away to Bradford Park Avenue last season in the FA Cup 1Q.

I don't know why Scarborough FC were even in the hat because they ceased to exist several weeks prior to the draw being announced.

Needless to say BPA got a walkover to the next round.

No. It was made crystal-clear to the new club Scarborough Athletic FC that they had to enter the North Riding Senior Cup first and only then could they enter the following seasons FA Vase and the FA Cup the season after that.

In fact I have just been perusing the FA Cup rules on this matter and they are very exact about new clubs eligibility.

Summat not quite right here.



Trust Member Scarborough Athletic FC



VP
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Jul 1, 2008, 6:30 PM

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Post #4 of 25 (6025 views)
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Re: [seadog41] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The same happened with Farnborough FC. Allowed into the FA Cup in their supposed first season.

The rules clearly state a non-league team must play in another FA competition the season before entering the FA Cup but the FA class these new sides as continuations of the old clubs so that's why they're allowed in. That's also why they're allowed to start higher up the pyramid than a completely new side.

However, if they're continuations then, in my view, they should still have to repay any money owed when the old club went under. The law doesn't work that way though.


(This post was edited by VP on Jul 1, 2008, 6:34 PM)


dave
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Jul 1, 2008, 8:41 PM

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Post #5 of 25 (5969 views)
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Re: [VP] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The law doesn't work that way though.



Yes exactly, the law of the land, and the FAs and footballs own internal rules are different.


sandhurstbee
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Jul 1, 2008, 10:04 PM

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Post #6 of 25 (5921 views)
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Re: [VP] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The same happened with Farnborough FC. Allowed into the FA Cup in their supposed first season.

The rules clearly state a non-league team must play in another FA competition the season before entering the FA Cup but the FA class these new sides as continuations of the old clubs so that's why they're allowed in. That's also why they're allowed to start higher up the pyramid than a completely new side.

However, if they're continuations then, in my view, they should still have to repay any money owed when the old club went under. The law doesn't work that way though.


I agree VP I remember reading how a local Builder was forced out of Business because of the money owed to him by Aldershot when they went bust. I wonder how he feels now that the reincarnation Aldershot Town are back in the league.



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dave
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Jul 1, 2008, 10:48 PM

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Post #7 of 25 (5895 views)
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Re: [sandhurstbee] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The same happened with Farnborough FC. Allowed into the FA Cup in their supposed first season.

The rules clearly state a non-league team must play in another FA competition the season before entering the FA Cup but the FA class these new sides as continuations of the old clubs so that's why they're allowed in. That's also why they're allowed to start higher up the pyramid than a completely new side.

However, if they're continuations then, in my view, they should still have to repay any money owed when the old club went under. The law doesn't work that way though.


I agree VP I remember reading how a local Builder was forced out of Business because of the money owed to him by Aldershot when they went bust. I wonder how he feels now that the reincarnation Aldershot Town are back in the league.



Are you suggesting they repay all their debts before reforming?


VP
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Jul 1, 2008, 11:09 PM

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Post #8 of 25 (5883 views)
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Re: [dave] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Are you suggesting they repay all their debts before reforming?


If they want to be seen as a continuation of the old club then yes.

Aldershot went bust owing something like 1.2 million. Reformed as Aldershot Town and wiped out the debt. Of course they started at the bottom again so did things the 'proper' way in my view.
Farnborough Town owed 1/2 a million or something and dropped down two divisions. Cleared their debt but still managed to retain their grant from the FA which amounted to a couple of hundred thousand.

I know this isn't just a football thing. Companies do it all the time but that doesn't make it right.

It's easy to run up hundreds of thousands of debt whilst paying players silly money knowing that, should HMRC eventually come after you, the penalties aren't really that bad. Meanwhile some clubs pay their taxes and bills meaning they can't afford to pay inflated wages to players so they can't go up.


dave
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Jul 1, 2008, 11:38 PM

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Post #9 of 25 (5875 views)
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Re: [VP] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So lets say that Aldershot went bust in 1992 (which of course they did.) They then take 10 years to repay their debts but they do, eventually in full. In 2002 which league should they then enter?


VP
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Jul 2, 2008, 8:36 PM

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Post #10 of 25 (5744 views)
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Re: [dave] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So lets say that Aldershot went bust in 1992 (which of course they did.) They then take 10 years to repay their debts but they do, eventually in full. In 2002 which league should they then enter?


I don't mind hypothetical questions that could possibly happen but that scenario isn't.


dave
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Jul 2, 2008, 9:39 PM

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Post #11 of 25 (5718 views)
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Re: [VP] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Lets say that Aldershot go bust in 2009 then. They take until 2019 to repay all their debts but they eventually do. However they were chucked out the football league in 2009, so which league would you place them in, in 2019?

This of course COULD happen. As it COULD happen to any club at any time in the future.


VP
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Jul 3, 2008, 3:50 PM

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Post #12 of 25 (5629 views)
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Re: [dave] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sigh.

If they go bust how are they able to pay the money back over any period of time? Their assets will be sold off and there won't be a club / team anymore to pay back the debt. Any new team arising out of this situation should, like Aldershot Town did, apply to start at whatever level is deemed to be the lowest in senior football in their area.

If they pay off their debts over a ten year period then you've got to assume the creditors have agreed to that so they wouldn't have gone bust in the first place so wouldn't have been kicked out of whatever league they're in.


DaveU
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Jul 8, 2008, 2:03 PM

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Post #13 of 25 (5434 views)
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Re: [VP] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's quite simple really. If a club goes bust owing lots of money, then reforms, it should not be considered a continuation of the former club unless it pays off all the former club's debts. Otherwise, it should be considered a new club and as such should not be eligible to enter the FA Cup, and indeed should start at the lowest level in the pyramid. But of course new clubs position is now determined by how big they think they are rather than anything to do with success on the pitch.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


acmold
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Jul 8, 2008, 2:10 PM

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Post #14 of 25 (5430 views)
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Re: [DaveU] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or

Page 14 Non League Paper

Steve Clark Head of Competitions F.A

"The reason why Nuneaton Tn and Halifax Tn are striaight in is that they are continuations of the old clubs playing at the grounds with the same people behind them, just with a slight name change"

I find quite a few worrying points in that statement.


DaveU
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Jul 8, 2008, 2:30 PM

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Post #15 of 25 (5425 views)
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Re: [acmold] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think the FA has got this very wrong. If they are a continuation of the former club then surely they would have to be the same registered company, in which case they should have to pay off the debts. If they are not the same registered company how can they be the same club? It just doesn't make any sense at all, and just encourages football clubs to live beyond their means to achieve a certain level of success, and then when it all goes tits up, change a few directors, re-register as a new company and carry on regardless. As has been said before, totally unfair on the creditors, and on clubs that live within their means and don't artificially inflate their league position by spending money they don't have.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Jamesie
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Jul 8, 2008, 3:26 PM

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Page 14 Non League Paper

Steve Clark Head of Competitions F.A

"The reason why Nuneaton Tn and Halifax Tn are striaight in is that they are continuations of the old clubs playing at the grounds with the same people behind them, just with a slight name change"

I find quite a few worrying points in that statement.

I'm starting to wonder now whether these "new" teams are retaining their status (etc) due to the fact they've taken over the old clubs' FA affiliation number. If that is the attitude of the FA officials, it is starting to sound like it. In other words they've taken over the title (with a li'l amendment) - but not the baggage.



Just a note to anyone who is wondering, I am no longer a moderator of this forum due to current personal circumstances and work commitments. If you need help, contact leohoenig or Steve walker. Thank You.


buncranaboy
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Jul 8, 2008, 9:54 PM

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Post #17 of 25 (5323 views)
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Re: [Jamesie] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If I were an unpaid creditor of either of these outfits, then I would be straight in with my legal team armed with those FA comments. This sort of sharp practice has to stop - at all levels of the game and it almost appears that the FA are complicit in seeing to it that the perpetrators can just begin all over again with the possible minor inconvenience of relegation into a league that you stand a chance of winning thereby beginning the boom and bust cycle all over again.
Ten year bans from FA Competitions. Or pay the creditors.
Sorry for the fans of those clubs, but your hard-earned has been misappropriated and you have every right to be livid.


dave
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Jul 9, 2008, 3:11 AM

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If I were an unpaid creditor of either of these outfits, then I would be straight in with my legal team armed with those FA comments.



And you probably wouldn't get very far. Legal is one thing, an internal football rule is another.


dave
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Jul 9, 2008, 3:23 AM

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Post #19 of 25 (5287 views)
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Re: [dave] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Just an overall general comment on the whole thread, its fine if you think a club who reforms after going bust should start at the bottom, but it needs the FA to change their already existing rules for that to happen. Applying what some people want now, under the current rules, would only lead to Halifax and Nuneaton etc appealing the results.

As for the Aldershot comments made further back, yea I wonder how the builder is feeling. But as Aldershot did indeed reform in the Ryman League and have worked their way back up to the football league anyway, they are now in the football league fairly. Are you suggesting sandhurstbee that they should repay the builder now?

Besides any company that is waiting on money from companys that have money problems themselves, can't be doing that well anyway. If Aldershots debts to the builder, caused the builder to go bust, that is partly the builders fault.


acmold
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Jul 9, 2008, 10:39 AM

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Post #20 of 25 (5223 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
If I were an unpaid creditor of either of these outfits, then I would be straight in with my legal team armed with those FA comments.



And you probably wouldn't get very far. Legal is one thing, an internal football rule is another.



At the end of the day no F.A (the FA, UEFA, FIFA) rule is above the law of the land (or EEC). ie - the Bosman ruling, freedom of contract / work and quota systems.


dave
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Jul 9, 2008, 7:38 PM

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Re: [acmold] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To

In Reply To




At the end of the day no F.A (the FA, UEFA, FIFA) rule is above the law of the land (or EEC). ie - the Bosman ruling, freedom of contract / work and quota systems.



And thats why I would guess it wouldn't get very far.


Dr Love
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Jul 11, 2008, 11:34 PM

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Post #22 of 25 (5011 views)
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Re: [acmold] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Page 14 Non League Paper

Steve Clark Head of Competitions F.A

"The reason why Nuneaton Tn and Halifax Tn are striaight in is that they are continuations of the old clubs playing at the grounds with the same people behind them, just with a slight name change"

I find quite a few worrying points in that statement.

It's not the first time they've done it either. AFC Telford United entered the FA Cup in their first season too.


jimmyjazz
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Jul 15, 2008, 8:53 AM

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Post #23 of 25 (4863 views)
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Re: [dave] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Besides any company that is waiting on money from companys that have money problems themselves, can't be doing that well anyway. If Aldershots debts to the builder, caused the builder to go bust, that is partly the builders fault.



Surely that depends how much work was invloved. If for example the work was a 3 month contract which needed your entire workforce on site then how will you make money elsewhere?

I'm annoyed that Halifax & Nuneaton have been allowed straight into the competition yet we (Enfield 1893) have not. If anyone can tell me how their situation is different I'd be glad to hear it.


mick
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Jul 15, 2008, 9:53 PM

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Re: [MKJames] new Halifax and Nuneaton teams in FA Cup [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Halifax & Nuneaton had average crowds of 1300 & 900 last season whereas Enfield had 100. It would seem then the FA have invoked rule 123.8 clause 4 - 'The lower the number of fans the harsher the punishment'.


acmold
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Jul 16, 2008, 9:51 AM

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Halifax & Nuneaton had average crowds of 1300 & 900 last season whereas Enfield had 100. It would seem then the FA have invoked rule 123.8 clause 4 - 'The lower the number of fans the harsher the punishment'.



This applies to many F.A rulings, all clubs are equal but some clubs are more equal than others.

 
 


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