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Another completely blank sheet.....



Mad Bill
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Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

It's accepted that one of the contributory factors to the slow southward movement of the Step 2 boundary is the imbalance in the allocation of Step 5 leagues.
How would you reorganise Step 5? Amalgamations in the south east? A third promotion place for NWCL/NCEL runners-up (by play-off?)? MFA footprint is too large? Can anything ever be done with the NL?
Ideas please.


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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

I think the answer is more step 5 leagues in the north (so that there is a roughly equal split along the Severn/Wash boundary rather than the current split, which is roughly 9.5 in the south and 4.5 in the north) rather than fewer in the south - the aim should be to reduce travelling.

Perhaps:

Split the NWCL into Cheshire and Lancashire again, split the NCEL into Yorkshire and non-Yorkshire, and allow the EMCL to run a step 5 division in the East Midlands?

The obvious problem is where to get all the extra clubs, but as all of the leagues except the Midland Alliance have second divisions, they could just split them geographically and run only a step 5 division (and not a step 6) a la Kent and Essex. Of course, this would mean promoting almost half the teams on the northern side...


ladderman
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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

There's probably an argument for splitting the NWCL, NCEL and MFA back into their original leagues, but the upheaval would be massive. So:
Increase relegation from Step 4 to 18 sides (three from each division), and ringfence six of those promotion places for the NL, NWCL, NCEL and MFA using play-offs between second placed sides where necessary. If there's still not six clubs available to be promoted, the reprieve(s) would go to a side from the NPL.
The remaining 12 places would go to the ten other Step 5 league. Every league gets one promotion spot, with play-offs for the best second placed teams where their champion has already been promoted.


blackdouglas
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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

I posted this in another topic I'll just provide the link to save from replicating the whole post.



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PaulC
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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

1 Northern League (Northumberland, Tyne & Wear, Durham, N Cumbria)
2 Lancashire Combination (Lancashire, S Cumbria, North Manchester, North Merseyside)
3 Cheshire County League (South Manchester, South Merseyside, Cheshire, North Derbyshire, N Staffs)
4 Yorkshire League (Yorkshire, North Lincs)
5 East Midlands League (S Derbys, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, S Lincolnshire, Northants)
6 Midland Alliance (S Staffs, W Midlands, Shropshire, N Worcs, N Warwickshire)
7 Eastern Counties (Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk)
8 South Midlands (Beds, E Bucks, Herts, N London)
9 South East (Essex, East London, Kent)
10 South (W Sussex, E Sussex, Surrey, S London)
11 Hellenic (W Bucks, Berks, Oxon, W London)
12 Wessex (Wiltshire, Dorset, Hants)
13 Western (Herefordshire, S Worcs, S Warwicks, Gloucestershire, Bristol/Avon)
14 South Western (Somerset, Devon, Cornwall)


(This post was edited by PaulC on May 4, 2011, 10:01 PM)


leohoenig
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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

You do not have to change the number of leagues to increase the number of promotion places.
Simply offer a second promotion place to each ot the Northern Leagues!



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PaulC
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Re: [leohoenig] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

A blank sheet allows the opportunity of sorting the south, which is a mess.


Moorsider
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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


In Reply To
1 Northern League (Northumberland, Tyne & Wear, Durham, N Cumbria)
2 Lancashire Combination (Lancashire, S Cumbria, North Manchester, North Merseyside)
3 Cheshire County League (South Manchester, South Merseyside, Cheshire, North Derbyshire, N Staffs)
4 Yorkshire League (Yorkshire, North Lincs)
5 East Midlands League (S Derbys, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire, S Lincolnshire, Northants)
6 Midland Alliance (S Staffs, W Midlands, Shropshire, N Worcs, N Warwickshire)
7 Eastern Counties (Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk)
8 South Midlands (Beds, E Bucks, Herts, N London)
9 South East (Essex, East London, Kent)
10 South (W Sussex, E Sussex, Surrey, S London)
11 Hellenic (W Bucks, Berks, Oxon, W London)
12 Wessex (Wiltshire, Dorset, Hants)
13 Western (Herefordshire, S Worcs, S Warwicks, Gloucestershire, Bristol/Avon)
14 South Western (Somerset, Devon, Cornwall)


I suspect there would be strong resistance by clubs in North Yorks if they were forced to play in a Yorkshire League, particularly if it also includes Lincolnshire. Clubs like Northallerton, Stokesley, Thornaby, Marske Utd, Guisborough and those with ambitions of Northern League such as New Marske, Redcar Athletic and Kirkbymoorside would certainly not be happy at having to travel all the way to Lincolnshire as transport connections to Tyneside and Northumberland from that area are much better than those across the Humber.


PaulC
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Re: [Moorsider] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Oh well, split North Yorkshire between NL and YL then.


acmold
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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... or

I would split the NWC and NCE making four leagues, leave the Northern League as it is but with the spliting of NWC and NCE it would offer better options to those clubs in Cumbria and North Yorkshire..

I would make the five leagues in the south east take on larger areas - Essex covers all of Essex and NE London, Kent takes on some of the CoCo area (SE London) in turn the CoCo takes on the Reading area and NE Hants, the Sussex gets upto the M25, the SML takes over all of Bucks - taking clubs from the Hellenic and UCL.

The Wessex would take on all of Dorset, the Hellenic becomes a Cotswolds and Malverns League plus Wiltshire, UCL gains Leicestershire and ECL would lose Essex but gain south Lincs. This gives more scope for the clubs in the south west, more scope for clubs in Lincolnshire and makes the footprint of the Midlands Alliance smaller, more or less the west Midlands.


pitch 63
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May 5, 2011, 12:51 PM

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Re: [acmold] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

It will never happen - too many vested interests, particularly amongst the individual leagues and county FA's officers and councillors. Personally I am in favour of forming a Division made up solely of clubs from Cornwall and Northumria, and another Division with just clubs from Kent and Cumbria, plus a division from all the counties in between; this third division would be called the Midland Division and may or may not include clubs from Wales, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Lundy.


AdamKing
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Re: [pitch 63] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



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buncranaboy
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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.


blackdouglas
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.



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buncranaboy
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Re: [blackdouglas] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.



At Step 5 or equivalent ? Expanding (doubling in this case) league boundaries is hardly progress toward greater regionalisation. In my view, more counties should be following the Kent and Sussex models.


AdamKing
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



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buncranaboy
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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



And so it should be, in my view. It's having multiple promotions of teams who are not equipped on or off the field for Step 4 that's causing a lot of the problems. More leagues, and play-offs to provide a more elite group of Step 4 entrants.

That should stir a few............


AdamKing
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Fair enough, but if you have say four teams who finish top of their respective leagues at Step 5 who have all got the right facilities to play in Step 4 and there's only two vacant slots for them in the league above...

... which two do you promote?

I can't see the other teams being too happy that they weren't promoted.



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buncranaboy
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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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Fair enough, but if you have say four teams who finish top of their respective leagues at Step 5 who have all got the right facilities to play in Step 4 and there's only two vacant slots for them in the league above...

... which two do you promote?

I can't see the other teams being too happy that they weren't promoted.



An end of season play-off. That's what happens abroad.


ictoan
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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

With the prospect of using the existing motorway network wouldn't an amalgamation of the Kent and CoCo Leagues be more realistic.



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Sarumio
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
If they did that, wouldn't it make promotion from Step 5 that much more difficult for teams, as there'd be more leagues?

Besides, I read on Wikipedia that the FA wanted the Kent and Essex leagues to consider merging a few years ago. It would be easier to merge with Sussex than with Essex if they had to merge.



And so it should be, in my view. It's having multiple promotions of teams who are not equipped on or off the field for Step 4 that's causing a lot of the problems. More leagues, and play-offs to provide a more elite group of Step 4 entrants.

That should stir a few............


I completely disagree there - most of the clubs that have struggled and folded of late have been the more established Step 3 and 4 teams - not the newcomers stepping up from Step 5.

Bromsgrove, Ilkeston, Farnborough, Nuneaton, Chester, Halifax, Windsor & Eton, Leyton, King's Lynn, Farlsey the list goes on.

Of the Step 5 newcomers from the past 5 years or so only Newcastle Blue Star and Almondsbury Town have noticably imploded after going up!!


blackdouglas
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

And that is partly where the imbalance in Step 5 comes from. In the South East Step 5 is based on County Leagues. Essex, Kent, Sussex, even the Combined Counties is primarily just a Surrey Super league, like the Wessex is in Hampshire. The only SE league that remotely looks like a multi-county league is the Spartan South Midland covering NW London, Herts, Bucks & S. Beds. Whereas in the rest of the country, County football has long since been consigned to Step 7, 8 or 9 and superceded by Regional Leagues, Western covering Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Wilts; Midland Alliance, Hereford, Salop, to Leicestershire & S.Notts; NW Counties covering from Stafford to Barrow; the Northern from Whitehaven to Guisborough. etc.

Either the South East has to man-up and rationalise its Step 5 leagues like the rest of the country, or the rest of the country has to realise their leagues are going to have to be carved up and Step 5 be a lot more local than it currently is. The areas covered by the NPL feeders alone wouldn't make bad NPL Premier Feeders outright.



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PaulC
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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.



Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.



Step 6 Holker OB-Eccleshall 285 miles round trip


KnowYourMarket
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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Step 7, Kirkbymoorside to Cleator Moor, 274 miles returnCrazy



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(This post was edited by KnowYourMarket on May 11, 2011, 4:46 PM)


PaulC
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Step 7, Kirkbymoorside to Cleator Moor, 274 miles returnCrazy


Southern softies. They don't know they're born.


Andrelux
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Re: [PaulC] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

A sad but unavoidable fact is that for Cleator Moor Celtic and/or Kirkbymoorside to have less travel, they'd have to find a bunch of 11 sheep to play along the way.

My personal view is that a step (call it step 4, call it step 5) should be ring-fenced (I'm thinking 9 or 10 regions, 12 at most) and that it should not necessarily be about levels of play, but a combination of that and distances. So sadly Cleator Moor Celtic would have to play some sheep, but many South East step 5 teams would go down a step. Not a long term problem, as the number of teams relegated out of a national league into a regional league would eventually even themselves out. And I have no issue with London step 6 being of a higher standard than northern step 5, for example. It all comes out in the wash.


ladderman
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Re: [blackdouglas] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.


Fantastic logic: There are some stupidly long trips already happening in Step 5, so we should create some more to even things out.


AdamKing
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Re: [ladderman] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Either further journeys or more leagues below Step 4.

You'll have arguments for and against: Look how far Westfields have to travel each season in the MFA.

Heck, Pegasus Juniors had to travel over to Berkshire and Oxfordshire on most weekends in the league season when they were playing away.

I didn't hear many complaints from them, they just got on with it despite having the greatest travel costs in their leagues.

Maybe ring-fencing by county is a way forward, but even then you will get areas of overspill and unhappy or dissenting voices.

You can't please all the people all the time.



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Darren Lovell
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Re: [AdamKing] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Surely the reason for more Step 4 and 5 teams in the South East than other parts of the country is density of populatiion? Towns and cities are geographically close to each other each with significant sizes of population. There are 7 or 8 million people in London alone. There is barely a town worthy of the name in Kent without a senior football club.

Next season's Isthmian League Division 1 South could have 8 Kent teams in it:
Chatham
Faversham
Folkestone
Hythe
Maidstone
Ramsgate
Sittingbourne
Whitstable

There are also Ebbsfleet, Bromley, Dartford, Dover, Tonbridge, Welling, Cray and Margate playing above this level (plus one Football League club - Gillingham) meaning that there are 17 clubs at Step 4 and above in the county, 16 of which are non league clubs.

Kent has two "county" leagues at the moment. The Kent League (Step 5) and the Kent County League (Step 7) The KCL is the league that is administered via the KCFA meaning that it is the de-facto county league. Of course, there is the new Step 6 competition that will start next season as well! In my opinion, some posters on this forum just seem to get hung up on the name of the Step 5 competition rather than anything else!

I am sure that many other counties in the country have as many non league clubs based within them but is there any compelling reason why any of these Kentiish towns should not have a football club playing at a good level in the pyramid? High popultion numbers equal plenty of towns. Plenty of towns equal lots of football clubs.

With at least 32 senior (Step 5 or above) clubs in one county, is it any wonder that for some clubs that travelling distances are a little lower than other parts of the country?



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Re: [Darren Lovell] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

But despite the amount of numbers of football clubs in Kent, has it not been mentioned previously on this forum that not all of them have got the required grading? A bit unbelievable if there are so many clubs in the area of a good standard and from towns of a decent size.



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acmold
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Re: [PonteCarlo] Another completely blank sheet..... or


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But despite the amount of numbers of football clubs in Kent, has it not been mentioned previously on this forum that not all of them have got the required grading? A bit unbelievable if there are so many clubs in the area of a good standard and from towns of a decent size.



I think our old friends the NIMBY's who have friends on the local planning committees may have something to do with that.


Darren Lovell
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Re: [PonteCarlo] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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But despite the amount of numbers of football clubs in Kent, has it not been mentioned previously on this forum that not all of them have got the required grading? A bit unbelievable if there are so many clubs in the area of a good standard and from towns of a decent size.


All of the Kent clubs at Step 4 and above have the necessary grading for the level that they play at. However, in Step 5, in my PERSONAL opinion, the grounds at Holmesdale (Holmesdale and Greenwich Borough) and Corinthian have a generous attitude towards the grading their facilities hve received.

The problem with facilities/gradings are in the main at Step 6/7 and below, hence the 4 year period given to the teams in the new Step 6 competition to achieve the required grading which is applied in the rest of the country.



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Re: [Darren Lovell] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

I think my point was that you were trying to make a point that Kent had probably the largest amount of football teams in one county - yet West Yorkshire has two separate leagues with three divisions each (not to mention the reserve sections of these leagues too) and yet all the clubs at Step 5-6 within that county have grounds that are up to scratch.



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Moorsider
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I think my point was that you were trying to make a point that Kent had probably the largest amount of football teams in one county - yet West Yorkshire has two separate leagues with three divisions each (not to mention the reserve sections of these leagues too) and yet all the clubs at Step 5-6 within that county have grounds that are up to scratch.



Well - apart from a few potholes in approach roads. Or is that classed as mining subsidence Eddie Wink


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Re: [Moorsider] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

OK... so the sheet is not completely blank, since I can't change steps 1 to 4 and levels 1 to 4.

The problem is that there is a southward creep, simply because there are more step 5 leagues in the South than in the North and Midlands. This percolates through to steps 4, 3 and 2.

With an amount of realism, since no-one is in favour of relegating themselves, and being unable to do anything further up the chain, rather than seek to decrease the number of step 5 leagues from 14 to 12, I would instead increase them to 18. The four additional step 5 leagues would mainly be in the North and Midlands... So from North West Counties, NCE, Northern League and Midland Alliance, I would double the number of step 5. That'd make 8 northern & midlands, 10 south & west, which seems about right.

If I could change one thing from step 4, I would have 4 relegated from each, which leaves 24 promotion places and means champions and six others from step 5 eligible for promotion. If a team from step 4 went under, rather than reprieve a releagated club, I would add an extra promotion place. Top four from each of the step 5 leagues (now 18 of them) eligible for promotion, with the slots filled (a) by champions, if they have chosen to move up (b) runners-up, if the champions have not applied to move up, then (c) points per game, until all slots are filled, as long as the team has finished in the top 4.

The main difference would not be in the South & West, since the same step 5 leagues would continue to exist. In the North and Midlands, well the Northern League would probably choose to remain where they were (they always do...), but North West Counties, Northern Counties East and Midland Alliance (plus possibly the northernmost UCL) could be thrown up into the air to make seven divisions. In any case, we'll need eight. So quite a few promotions from step 6 to step 5 in the North and Midlands. But no demotions in the South and West.

With more north and midlands step 5 leagues, the gradual southward drift might be halted. I would also put a geographic ringfence at step 6, which would each begin wih county premier divisions. I'm open to offers as to whether step 5 should also be ring fenced.


brianpoole
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May 16, 2011, 4:49 PM

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Re: [pitch 63] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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It will never happen - too many vested interests, particularly amongst the individual leagues and county FA's officers and councillors. Personally I am in favour of forming a Division made up solely of clubs from Cornwall and Northumria, and another Division with just clubs from Kent and Cumbria, plus a division from all the counties in between; this third division would be called the Midland Division and may or may not include clubs from Wales, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and Lundy.



Nice one pitch 63!
And how about throwing in a league made up of teams from Wales (anything below Welsh Prem) and Scotland (anything below Scottish Prem) where attendances, and probably standards too, look like they ought to be in Step 5 or 6?


AdamKing
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May 16, 2011, 8:43 PM

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Re: [brianpoole] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Brian, interesting that you should say that.

If you take a look at my post on the 'fantasy league' thread, I've done a league based on a few South Wales, Gloucestershire and Herefordshire clubs forming a Western League N&W League at Step 6.



Your Talents Are The Wings Your Dreams Will Use To Fly


cinque porter
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May 17, 2011, 7:55 AM

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Re: [blackdouglas] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately


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This will probably be unpopular with some, but I would merge the Kent Premier and Sussex Leagues together.


Really ? - Pagham to Deal for a league game involving a 270 mile round trip and the best part of 5 hours (on a good day) on the road.

Once a season each, and doesn't this already happen in the North and Midlands anyway? Just evening things out.

Fine in theory ,less if you look at the road map and even worse if you attempt a journey on a Tuesday evening. Hythe to Hastings is a trip often made for non-football reasons but you try doing it in under an hour and it is only 30 miles. A Saturday trip to Peacehaven from Hythe also took us 3 hours and so if you had Deal at Pagham it is an afternoon off work which is a big ask for County league players. The trouble is that there are no fast roads going acrossways--bloody Romans.


cope1
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May 17, 2011, 11:45 AM

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Re: [cinque porter] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

These Tuesday night games are often quoted as being problematic. To my mind the leagues should be small enough not to need them, or at least so that there are few enough for it not to be an issue. Aside from that, isn't quoting the longest journey in a league on a Tuesday night really a way of plying the facts to prove your point? Most journeys won't be as long and I'm sure the fixtures man will try to avoid putting the longest journey on a week night. We have end of season double headers in the SAL but the unspoken rules are that north plays north, south plays south, west plays west etc.


Andrelux
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May 17, 2011, 3:19 PM

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Re: [cope1] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Hear, bloody hear.

18 team divisions... few midweek matches... travel is manageable.

Since I have a blank piece of paper, I would also like to use it to draw a functioning AK 47 on it which I can use the next time someone points out the maximum distance of travel they might potentially have. Yes, it's true, draw a line between yourselves and the furthest club in your league, and it's a fair distance.

But guess what? You're not going to be playing them every week. An away trip once a season would be my guess. And there's an awful lot more shorter trips along the way. Plus, of course, half the season which will be home games. If you've got a 30 or at most 34 league games per season, you're mainly going to be playing weekends anyway.

Otherwise, stay in your small area, only play teams within 10 miles, have a 22 team/42 match championship, and then complain about the standard of the opposition.

Now, where was my Kalashnikov?


(This post was edited by Andrelux on May 17, 2011, 3:33 PM)


cope1
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May 17, 2011, 5:08 PM

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Re: [Andrelux] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Can I have a go when you're finished? Wink

I know what people mean, but it's a bit of a cliché to drop in the longest distance in conjunction with a Tuesday. As noted, the longest journeys can be reserved for weekends. If the league don't do that then that's a whole different problem.

As for the N/M/SE numbers issue, adding 4 in the north and mids seems the only sensible solution. There seems little point making the southerners travel further "just so they know what it's like up north" when you could just reduce the travelling for the northerners.


blackdouglas
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May 19, 2011, 1:32 PM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

I'm not sure if it's this thread where I advocated reducing the Step 5 divisions in the London/Home Counties from 5 into 3, but having looked at a reduction to both 3 and 4 divisions I've reconsidered and recommend 4 divisions at Step 5. The boundaries to the 4 footprints would fall roughly along the paths of the River Thames in the east, A1(M) to the north, M4 to the west, and M23/A23 in the south.



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr),Watford, Rochdale, queen of the south and a few others.


chienmort
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May 28, 2011, 9:36 AM

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Re: [Mad Bill] Another completely blank sheet..... or Reply Privately

Mike Avery has a novel suggestion the looks like it could work. Click here for details.

It suggests that the Conference will not change so we have to make the pyramid fatter from Step 3 down.

It is a 1,2,6,18.32,96 structure.

Step 3 is reorganised into 6 leagues with a further 18 at Step 4. These two levels are made up from combining steps 3,4 & 5.

The new step 5 would be 32 divisions with 96 at step 6.

Any thoughts?



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien

(This post was edited by chienmort on May 28, 2011, 9:37 AM)