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steve walker
Administrator
Oct 16, 2019, 9:21 PM
Posts: 1851
Location: Staffordshire
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I can't get the previous thread to update in the index. No idea why.
So here is a new one. The two old threads are still there and searchable, nothing has been lost.
Please do not take your inspiration from the House of Commons... keep discussion civil and respectful.
I would like this thread to be informative rather than argumentative. Obviously there are different points of view but please express them without denegrating anyone who has a different opinion to your own.
Most of the arguments on the old threads just go round and round in circles and are completely pointless. If you oppose what someone says please don't think it's your duty to post a response even if you have nothing new to say. Let people read the thread and they will make up their own minds, that is far more powerful, you are not going to change the mind of the poster you are arguing with.
Please don't post links or images as a post unless you express an opinion to go with them. If we want that will stick to Facebook or Twitter.
Thanks.... Steve
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northstandexile
First Team Star
Oct 16, 2019, 11:34 PM
Posts: 1422
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Will Boris throw the DUP under the bus, and does it matter if he does?
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 17, 2019, 9:54 AM
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Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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"I will never create a border down the Irish sea" says man creating border down the Irish sea.
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 17, 2019, 2:42 PM
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Junker has said there will be no extension.
It really is Noel Edmonds time for Parliament...
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derekn
First Team Star
Oct 17, 2019, 4:11 PM
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But it's not his decision, it's up to the 27 member countries.
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 17, 2019, 7:42 PM
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Will Boris throw the DUP under the bus, and does it matter if he does? All that really matters to Boris is securing their 10 votes in any upcoming parliamentary divisions! Everyone has their price. In the DUP's case about £10 billion of UK taxpayers' money
I've not heard that but I do know the divorce bill is now a realistic £33 billion not the £89 billion the Remainers wanted the UK to pay.
Within that context, if NI ( not the DUP) gets £10 billion that's money well spent.
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jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 17, 2019, 9:03 PM
Posts: 3068
Location: Dronfield
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Johnson is a shallow thinker and congenital liar. He's been sacked from at least two jobs for lying.
Having said that, he's fortunate in the poor quality of the leaders of the opposition parties. Corbyn is even more utterly unfit to be PM than Johnson, Swinson is out of her depth and Blackford is a windbag.
Saturday could be a complete farce.
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jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 17, 2019, 10:29 PM
Posts: 7911
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Is anyone else getting an advert for a Romanian politician under the last posting in this thread (or should that be Tharead)?
jrev61
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kirby knitters
Qatar World Cup bid member!
Oct 19, 2019, 5:42 PM
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Saturday could be a complete farce.
.  Good to see some accurate prediction here! And so, Johnson is now insisting that the law does not compel him to obey the law.
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kirby knitters
Qatar World Cup bid member!
Oct 19, 2019, 6:07 PM
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So what happens now IF he goes to the EU asking for an extension and they refuse?
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 19, 2019, 10:40 PM
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Just deliver on the result of the referendum!! The public are sick of it, and so are the EU. Johnson comes back with a deal. Presents no economic assessment, does his best to prevent parliament from scrutinising and parliament quite rightly says "hold on". You would take more care buying a used car than Johnson wanted parliament to take over his new worse deal. The public may be sick of it, but that is no reason for parliament to abrogate its responsiblilities to the nation.
Like Parliament will make a fair and reasoned assessment............That is like Wishing for Unicorns!
I don't see how a deal that gives the UK more freedom from the EU than May's deal is a worse deal.
Parliament's most important responsibility to the nation is to uphold Democracy by delivering on the result of a national plebiscite in a timely fashion......Epic Fail on that score.
Time for a GE !
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 19, 2019, 10:44 PM
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 19, 2019, 11:59 PM
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Adds precisely Zilch to the discussion........Nothing new there!
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 20, 2019, 9:37 AM
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John McDonnell:
“Labour will win the General Election.”
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 20, 2019, 9:40 AM
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Amendment to Bill calling for referendum on Johnson's deal to be sought next week,
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leohoenig
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Oct 20, 2019, 11:06 AM
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That comes with the risk of Johnson actually winning a vote in Parliament
Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 21, 2019, 12:50 PM
Posts: 11894
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Johnson is a shallow thinker and congenital liar. He's been sacked from at least two jobs for lying.
Having said that, he's fortunate in the poor quality of the leaders of the opposition parties. Corbyn is even more utterly unfit to be PM than Johnson, Swinson is out of her depth and Blackford is a windbag. From what we've seen over the last three years and looking at that array of 'talent' to take us forward, maybe any future referendum should offer us a third option - leave, remain or scrap parliament altogether and go for direct rule from Euroupe.. 
At least we would be assured a centrist social democratic rule rather than rule by right wing extremists set on dismantling our social wealth and handing it to Trump’s pals and pursuing a race to the bottom in terms of workers’ rights and wages and environmental standards.
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 21, 2019, 1:09 PM
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Johnson is a shallow thinker and congenital liar. He's been sacked from at least two jobs for lying.
Having said that, he's fortunate in the poor quality of the leaders of the opposition parties. Corbyn is even more utterly unfit to be PM than Johnson, Swinson is out of her depth and Blackford is a windbag. From what we've seen over the last three years and looking at that array of 'talent' to take us forward, maybe any future referendum should offer us a third option - leave, remain or scrap parliament altogether and go for direct rule from Euroupe.. At least we would be assured a centrist social democratic rule rather than rule by right wing extremists set on dismantling our social wealth and handing it to Trump’s pals and pursuing a race to the bottom in terms of workers’ rights and wages and environmental standards.
You mean we should dismantle the UK Parliament because you don’t like the type of Governments the British people elect?
Interesting approach to democracy, but then I suppose that goes with territory when trying to ignore various referendum results.
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paulh66
Qatar World Cup bid member!
Oct 21, 2019, 1:10 PM
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Issues of social wealth, workers' rights and wages and environmental standards etc would be determined by the government/parliament of the day. I doubt any party standing on a ticket to neglect all of that would sway the electorate in a general election.
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 21, 2019, 4:42 PM
Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #36 of 143
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Johnson is a shallow thinker and congenital liar. He's been sacked from at least two jobs for lying.
Having said that, he's fortunate in the poor quality of the leaders of the opposition parties. Corbyn is even more utterly unfit to be PM than Johnson, Swinson is out of her depth and Blackford is a windbag. From what we've seen over the last three years and looking at that array of 'talent' to take us forward, maybe any future referendum should offer us a third option - leave, remain or scrap parliament altogether and go for direct rule from Euroupe.. At least we would be assured a centrist social democratic rule rather than rule by right wing extremists set on dismantling our social wealth and handing it to Trump’s pals and pursuing a race to the bottom in terms of workers’ rights and wages and environmental standards. You mean we should dismantle the UK Parliament because you don’t like the type of Governments the British people elect? Interesting approach to democracy, but then I suppose that goes with territory when trying to ignore various referendum results.
No, I mean I prefer social democratic rule to the kind of extremist right wing government the people of England continue to elect and impose on the rest of the UK.
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 21, 2019, 6:57 PM
Posts: 1619
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Johnson is a shallow thinker and congenital liar. He's been sacked from at least two jobs for lying.
Having said that, he's fortunate in the poor quality of the leaders of the opposition parties. Corbyn is even more utterly unfit to be PM than Johnson, Swinson is out of her depth and Blackford is a windbag. From what we've seen over the last three years and looking at that array of 'talent' to take us forward, maybe any future referendum should offer us a third option - leave, remain or scrap parliament altogether and go for direct rule from Euroupe.. At least we would be assured a centrist social democratic rule rather than rule by right wing extremists set on dismantling our social wealth and handing it to Trump’s pals and pursuing a race to the bottom in terms of workers’ rights and wages and environmental standards. You mean we should dismantle the UK Parliament because you don’t like the type of Governments the British people elect? Interesting approach to democracy, but then I suppose that goes with territory when trying to ignore various referendum results. No, I mean I prefer social democratic rule to the kind of extremist right wing government the people of England continue to elect and impose on the rest of the UK.
I think your understanding of right wing extremism is a whole lot different to the vast majority of the population.
Liberal extremism , such as you seem to advocate, rewards elites and penalises individualism. It stifles creativity, freedom of expression and free thinking.
It warehouses millions in to sub-standard social housing living off inadequate benefits.
It allows the rich and priviliged to deny Democratic elections and use their wealth to mount vexatious legal proceedings.
There is no evidence that any Tory Govt would reduce rights and much evidence that free from unaccountable and distant legislative bodies it would be free , as would any UK Gov't', to set much improved standards.
Uk law is already far superior than EU rulings on Sick Pay, Holiday Pay, Minimum Wages, Maternity Leave.
The Equality Act, Sexual Discrimination Act, Domestic Violence Act, Employment Protection Act all passed without EU involvement
Equal Pay Act, Abortion Act and others all passed before we were in the EU
Healthcare in the EU is a shocking mish mash of second rate state provision and insurance based Private services.......Great for the Elites, not so good for the Hoi Polloi.
Not as good as the UK NHS which was created WITHOUT ANY HELP FROM THE EU!!!!
Your take on politics and democracy is pretty twisted if you think social democracy does anything other than concentrate power , money and influence in a cosseted and protected middle class elite.
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 21, 2019, 7:02 PM
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Not sure if the intention is to allow it to be retrospective. Making something retrospectively a criminal offence? Really?!  You sure you've done nothing that a government of either far Left or far Right might decide to criminalise? .
The precedent was set by the Supreme Court who made up a rule on the hoof then backdated it...........
And yes, I have done plenty an extreme lefty mob would criminalise.........like BREATHE, THINK, VOTE !
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 21, 2019, 7:06 PM
Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Amendment to Bill calling for referendum on Johnson's deal to be sought next week, Gov't looking at using a Presentation Bill to be the UK version of the USA's Logan Act to outlaw colluding with foreign powers to undermine official UK Gov't negotiations. Not sure if the intention is to allow it to be retrospective
Here’s the first of the traitors, bonkers Tory Brexiteer Daniel Kawczynski, MP for Shrewsbury
“As almost fluent Polish speaker I am doing all I can can to convince Polish govenemt to veto extension of Article 50.Others working on Czechs and Hungarians. One of these will veto I predict”
(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 21, 2019, 7:07 PM)
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 21, 2019, 7:55 PM
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Amendment to Bill calling for referendum on Johnson's deal to be sought next week, Gov't looking at using a Presentation Bill to be the UK version of the USA's Logan Act to outlaw colluding with foreign powers to undermine official UK Gov't negotiations. Not sure if the intention is to allow it to be retrospective Here’s the first of the traitors, bonkers Tory Brexiteer Daniel Kawczynski, MP for Shrewsbury “As almost fluent Polish speaker I am doing all I can can to convince Polish govenemt to veto extension of Article 50.Others working on Czechs and Hungarians. One of these will veto I predict”
Oh dear, you really don't get it do you?
Shall I explain it to you, LOL!?
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 22, 2019, 6:36 AM
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A few links. A five hour stream of Saturday's march That's a lot of people who don't understand how Democracy works ..........Nowhere near 17.4million. Unless Democracy is now defined by those with the means and the time to travel to London and ponce about in front of Parliament and the media!!
(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 22, 2019, 6:41 AM)
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 22, 2019, 9:47 AM
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Bills given more time by the Tories than the EU Withdrawal Bill:
The Wild Animals in Circuses Bill (2019).
People affected by the EU Withdrawal Bill - 65 million
Animals affected by the Wild Animals in Circuses Bill - 19, including one zebra, two camels, three raccoons and a zebu.
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 22, 2019, 10:47 AM
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Bills given more time by the Tories than the EU Withdrawal Bill:
The Wild Animals in Circuses Bill (2019).
People affected by the EU Withdrawal Bill - 65 million
Animals affected by the Wild Animals in Circuses Bill - 19, including one zebra, two camels, three raccoons and a zebu. It's practically the same deal as TM's so in theory its had plenty of scrutiny. But any reason to drag this whole sorry saga out will no doubt be used and abused.
May's deal has already been rejected. The Johnson bits are even worse.
There is only one reason for curtailing scrutiny of the Bill.
It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 22, 2019, 10:49 AM)
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 22, 2019, 5:25 PM
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The key question is (after debating Brexit for 3.5 years): what is the likelihood that any MP is going to change his or her position whether the Withdrawal Bill is debated for 3 days or 3 months?
The positions are so entrenched, that it’s doubtful indefinite further scrutiny is going to change anyone’s mind. For the 20 or so MP’s who may be persuaded either way, I’d suggest 3 days is long enough to read the 110 pages and make a decision one way or the other.
The 3 days doesn’t provide long for amendments, but I’d suggest that what is offered is the only deal capable of getting through Parliament. No amendments - either accept or reject the deal as presented.
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 22, 2019, 7:18 PM
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Finally, we have a deal agreed by MP’s:
329 v 299
Majority of 30
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leohoenig
Administrator
Oct 22, 2019, 8:39 PM
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They have now democratically decided to look before they leap!
Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com
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007Dale
First Team Star
Oct 23, 2019, 8:04 AM
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I suspect we’ll end up with a 3 month delay which will give us time to have a General Election.
The polls (although unreliable) seem to indicate consistent movement towards Boris Johnson, which has accelerated since his ‘deal’ with the EU.
The latest poll (YouGov/Times) has Tories on 37%, Labour 22%, LibDem 19%, Brexit 11%, Green 7%.
This would translate into:
Tories 408 seats (majority 166)
Labour 135 seats
SNP 53 seats
Lib Dem’s 31 seats
It’s getting to the point where Labour NEED Brexit sorted before a General Election, otherwise their muddled position on Brexit will become their Achilles Heel.
The Tories and Lib Dem’s are happy to have a GE prior to Brexit being sorted as they have clear positions they can exploit.
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jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 23, 2019, 8:31 AM
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Relying on Opinion Polls for a GE win?
Maybe Johnson should ask Theresa May how well that works out.
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Towlawtom
Reserve Team Regular
Oct 23, 2019, 11:06 AM
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Towlawtom
Reserve Team Regular
Oct 23, 2019, 11:32 AM
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Ok Isaac in light of what's happened this morning I have deleted my post.
It's upto you if you want to do the same!
I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 24, 2019, 9:04 AM
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[reply
It’s getting to the point where Labour NEED Brexit sorted before a General Election, otherwise their muddled position on Brexit will become their Achilles Heel.
The Tories and Lib Dem’s are happy to have a GE prior to Brexit being sorted as they have clear positions they can exploit.
And the SNP ... of course.
It's amusing listening to Johnson pleading to be allowed to have a GE. Labour aren't playing along and he is miffed.
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 24, 2019, 9:05 AM
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This is typical of the intellectual bullying and brow beating we have seen towards working class Leave voters over the past 3 years. This is a classic 'Field' interview where you ambush somebody going about their daily business and throw loaded questions at them that they are unprepared for.
The worst culprit of this form of disenfranchisement is probably James O'Brien who encourages callers onto his radio show and then vicimises them with his own brand of bullying using discredited police interrogation techniques such as :
a) Leading or loaded questions
b) minimisation or maximisation of an issue ( immigration for example)
c) Cognitive techniques
d) Using Lies ( Project Fear) O'Brien merely highlights the shear stupidity and empty-headedness of his pro-Brexit callers.
It's suspected that many of the calls to the James O'brien show are fake but some people are easily duped. Personally I never listen to him and it's a bit of a mystery as to why so many Brexiteers allegedly do.
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Isaac
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Oct 24, 2019, 9:40 AM
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[
It's suspected that many of the calls to the James O'brien show are fake By whom?
Quite a few people on the LBC Facebook page.
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jon b
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Oct 24, 2019, 11:03 AM
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Barnsley Man was quite clearly NOT saying the muslim immigrants he wants to prevent are coming FROM the EU but was intimating that they come THROUGH the EU to the UK.
Meaning that because they travel across many, many EU borders he has concluded that there is EU collusion to ship Economic African Afghani and Syrian migrants straight in to the UK.
22 of the 28 EU states are members of the Schengen Area, with no passport or other border checks, 4 EFTA states are also members of the Schengen area.
Travelling across these borders is therefore just as simple as crossing the border from the Republic of Ireland to Ulster.
Once in the Schengen area refugees can go were they want to go. Stopping them coming into the Schengen Area has been the problem.
Erdogan of Turkey recently threatened to ship 3.6 million Syrian refugees on into the EU, if Greece were faced with such a catastrophic influx with consequent massive economic and social disruption they wouldn't prevent them moving on to other countries, they'd expect other richer european countries to share the influx.
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jon b
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Oct 24, 2019, 11:24 AM
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Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 24, 2019, 11:50 AM
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By whom? Quite a few people on the LBC Facebook page. LOL!
I find it LOL that anybody listens to what was aptly described as a 'radio version of the Jeremy Kyle show' but it's a free country.
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jon b
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Oct 24, 2019, 12:15 PM
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Johnson thinks he'll do better with a GE than a Referendum, why on earth should his opponents help him out?
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jon b
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 24, 2019, 12:25 PM
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Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.
. It is currently Labour policy to have a General Election before a referendum. The SNP want a General Election. The Tories want a General Election. Why are we not having a General Election?
Before the Fixed Term Parliaments Act Prime Ministers called General Elections as and when they thought they stood best chance of winning.
Johnson would like to have this political advantage and call a GE now when he thinks he has best chance of winning, but the Fixed Term Act prevents him,
Oddly enough, the opposition parties want a GE when they stand best chance of winning. Given the number of unforced errors Johnson & Cummings have made so far, their opponents are happy to delay the GE and let them make more.
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paulh66
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Oct 24, 2019, 2:09 PM
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Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.
. There is absolutely no logical reason for another referendum, if the result of the first one isn't accepted why would the vote of the second one be and so on and so on?
I'm completely indifferent to the notion of a second referendum but, when I hear the Brexit party itself saying Johnson's deal isn't what the leave voters wanted, and Anna Soubry and others saying that Johnson's deal doesn't deliver any of the pledges promised during the referendum campaign, it cannot sit comfortably with anyone that this deal delivers what the government is telling us the nation wants.
A referendum probably would help in that regard but a general election, where everyone puts their cards on the table and shows not only the merits of their positions on remain/leave but also how that interplays with their other policies, is probably a more robust means to settle it. Of course this would demand each party to have a fully thought-through, cohesive and transparent strategy for running the country. I shan't hold my breath.
(This post was edited by paulh66 on Oct 24, 2019, 2:10 PM)
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PaulC
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Oct 24, 2019, 5:57 PM
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The problem with a GE is this.
There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.
A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.
Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit.
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Yatesman
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Oct 24, 2019, 6:01 PM
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Johnson presumably prefers a GE to another Referendum because he might well lose a Referendum but in a GE there's little likelihood of Labour or Liberal Democrats standing down to leave just one Remain candidate in constituencies.
. There is absolutely no logical reason for another referendum, if the result of the first one isn't accepted why would the vote of the second one be and so on and so on? I'm completely indifferent to the notion of a second referendum but, when I hear the Brexit party itself saying Johnson's deal isn't what the leave voters wanted, and Anna Soubry and others saying that Johnson's deal doesn't deliver any of the pledges promised during the referendum campaign, it cannot sit comfortably with anyone that this deal delivers what the government is telling us the nation wants. A referendum probably would help in that regard but a general election, where everyone puts their cards on the table and shows not only the merits of their positions on remain/leave but also how that interplays with their other policies, is probably a more robust means to settle it. Of course this would demand each party to have a fully thought-through, cohesive and transparent strategy for running the country. I shan't hold my breath.
I would be extremely angry if we have a second referendum .
Let's accept an absolute from now on this thread....
THERE IS NOT A DEAL OUT THERE OR YET UNTHOUGHT OF THAT WILL PLEASE EVERYONE!
There, now let's move the **** on.
We aren't going to get a deal to suit everyone so let's take the deal on offer that allows us to Leave in an orderly fashion.
The Brexit Party speaks for itself, not the 17.4 million.
We, the people, voted Leave because the whole of Parliament gave us that option.
They delegated that decision to the electorate. They handed that decision to us............just that once on that one issue we, the people , were asked to direct Parliament.
Having made our decision we then batted the ball back to Parliament to enact that decision. To negotiate a withdrawal from the EU.
Logic being that we , the UK, and the EU would negotiate in GOOD FAITH and with GOOD GRACE !
Therefore we voted Leave (details tba)
TBA in GOOD FAITH and with GOOD GRACE..
That's the only thing you can be assured the 17.4million voted for.
Any other claims of what the whole 174million voted for is bullshit.
The Government, as the executive, were to be the negotiators and Parliament was there to support the UK position.
Unfortunately Parliament has reneged on that responsibility
Time for a GE.
People vs Parliament
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Yatesman
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Oct 24, 2019, 6:14 PM
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The problem with a GE is this.
There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.
A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.
Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit. How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now.
Don't forget Remainers have access to Crystal Balls.
They see things no-one else can!
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Yatesman
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Oct 24, 2019, 6:43 PM
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We had a referendum
The result hasn't been enacted
. That’s just as well because the electorate has changed its mind. What kind of people would inflict upon themselves that which they no longer want? Madness.
Asked them all have you ?
No
Your faith in polls is charming but misguided
Polls are dodgy science
Not even pollsters themselves have the same misguided faith in polls as you seem to.
I would suggest that millions of Remaners accept the inevitability of Leaving the EU and just want it done.
(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 24, 2019, 6:46 PM)
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Yatesman
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Oct 24, 2019, 6:44 PM
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The problem with a GE is this.
There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.
A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.
Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit. How arrogant of you to claim that another referendum would show that we no longer want Brexit. You don't know anymore than I do what the outcome would be but I think we can gaurntee one thing, whoever lost would refuse to accept it and we would actually be in a worse mess than we are now. Nothing arrogant on reporting the outcome of virtually every poll since 2017.
The arrogance comes from the definitive conclusions based on the dodgy science of polling.
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PaulC
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Oct 24, 2019, 7:08 PM
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Yet there are some who quote a single poll as evidence and then dismiss hundreds of polls because every one comes up with the wrong result.
LOL!
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jon b
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Oct 24, 2019, 10:50 PM
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Johnson thinks he'll do better with a GE than a Referendum, why on earth should his opponents help him out?
. His opponents aren't going to "help him out" as you put it because they know what the outcome would be.
True. Although maybe "suspect" rather than "know".
His opponents think he'll have less chance of winning a working majority if they delay the GE. by a few months.
.
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paulh66
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Oct 24, 2019, 11:00 PM
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At the risk of contradicting myself, I'd suggest the outcome of the next election will be the least predictable of my lifetime.
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Tykeoldboy
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Oct 25, 2019, 12:05 AM
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The problem with a GE is this.
There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.
A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.
Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit. We had a referendum The result hasn't been enacted Parliament has reneged on it's duty to the electorate A GE will settle matters People vs Parliament.
The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true. That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.
In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.
A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result.
So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.
The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.
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Yatesman
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Oct 25, 2019, 6:45 AM
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The problem with a GE is this.
There is a majority now against Brexit. A binary referendum will show that we no longer want Brexit.
A GE is FPTP and non-binary. The pro-Brexit minority is concentrated in the Tories and BP. The anti-Brexit majority is spread over far more parties. The Tories may get only 35% support but will win a majority in Parliament.
Only a referendum reflects what the electorate thinks of Brexit. We had a referendum The result hasn't been enacted Parliament has reneged on it's duty to the electorate A GE will settle matters People vs Parliament. The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true. That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one. In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution. A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.
With respect, this issue has been debated many times on this forum.
It's been settled that the referendum was to be enacted and that was stated by the Gov't of the time and repeated by all the players in the game.
Since then an act of Parliament has been passed through Westminster to enable us to Leave the EU. ( The European Withdrawal Act 2018)............We are on the path to Leaving , a path now being blocked it has to be said
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007Dale
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Oct 25, 2019, 8:43 AM
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The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum
If the country really has turned ‘remain’ then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Dem’s to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.
If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.
This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MP’s elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote.
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jon b
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Oct 25, 2019, 2:17 PM
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Given the current state of the parties per Yougov etc I can understand why a first past the post General Election would appeal to Tory Brexiters rather than another Referendum.
The SNP and Lib Dems would probably also do ok in a GE, but why on earth would Labour turkey MPs vote for Christmas?
.
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 28, 2019, 9:14 AM
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The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum
If the country really has turned ‘remain’ then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Dem’s to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.
If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.
This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MP’s elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote.
General Elections are FPTP. They are multi-issue. Brexit is but one issue.
A GE may well deliver a Tory majority with 35% of the votes. It does not mean the electorate has voted for Brexit.
They only way to discover what the electorate thinks of the reheated deal Johnson has come up with is to ask them ... via a referendum.
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 28, 2019, 1:02 PM
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Post #101 of 143
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The order of resolution is:
1. General Election
2a. Enact Brexit policy of winning party
2b. If no outright winner, confirmatory referendum
If the country really has turned ‘remain’ then enough Tory seats will be lost to the Lib Dem’s to stop an overall majority. Ergo, we need another referendum.
If however, a General Election is won by the Tories, we have the Boris Brexit as negotiated with the EU.
This Parliament no longer reflects what the people voted for in 2017 ie 84% of MP’s elected on a promise to honour the result of the first referendum WITHOUT a confirmatory vote. General Elections are FPTP. They are multi-issue. Brexit is but one issue. A GE may well deliver a Tory majority with 35% of the votes. It does not mean the electorate has voted for Brexit. They only way to discover what the electorate thinks of the reheated deal Johnson has come up with is to ask them ... via a referendum.
You only want another referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. Whichever way it went the losers wouldn't accept it and we would be in an even bigger mess than we are now.
Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final.
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PaulC
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Oct 28, 2019, 11:19 PM
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"October 31 Brexit 50p coins to be shredded and melted down by Royal Mint after EU grants extension"
https://www.itv.com/...-down-by-royal-mint/
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007Dale
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Oct 29, 2019, 12:00 PM
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Labour have finally caved, having been put under pressure by the Lib Dem’s and SNP. We’ll have a December General Election.
This is the right approach and finally everyone agrees.
Election first, Brexit second and if still not resolved, then a confirmatory referendum.
Expect polls to go up and down over the next six weeks. They might be showing a 100+ majority for the Tories at the moment, but I suspect the majority will be 20-30 in the end. I’m sure someone will dig up a poll during the next six weeks that shows labour in the lead.
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Isaac
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Oct 29, 2019, 12:36 PM
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You only want another referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. Whichever way it went the losers wouldn't accept it and we would be in an even bigger mess than we are now. Meanwhile the Tories want a third General Election within the life of one fixed term parliament of 5 years. because they didn't like the result of the previous ones. It's a funny old hypocritical world.
A general election is totally different to a single issue referendum.
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 29, 2019, 12:38 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. .
Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you?
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colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 29, 2019, 1:29 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you?
Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you?
Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 29, 2019, 1:57 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you?
Unlike remainers of course? I think you need to take off those rose tinted specs. Most people will agree that neither side came out of it smelling of roses
(This post was edited by Isaac on Oct 29, 2019, 2:36 PM)
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007Dale
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Oct 29, 2019, 6:18 PM
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Labour have finally caved, having been put under pressure by the Lib Dem’s and SNP. We’ll have a December General Election. You're a tad premature. It will depend on Johnson accepting unpalatable amendments - votes at 16/17 and votes for Eu citizens. Too much like democracy for the Tories' liking.
The eminently sensible deputy speaker has correctly concluded that you can’t change the rules to suit and not selected the 16-17 and EU citizen amendments for vote.
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 6:35 PM
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You only want another referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. Whichever way it went the losers wouldn't accept it and we would be in an even bigger mess than we are now. Meanwhile the Tories want a third General Election within the life of one fixed term parliament of 5 years. because they didn't like the result of the previous ones. It's a funny old hypocritical world.
No, typical distortion of reality.
An election is nothing like a referendum. It's a different type of plebiscite with different aims and outcomes.
To compare a referendum to a GE is borderline moronic.
Also. it's Parliament that has to agree to an election, as you well know, that means Labour, SNP and LieDumbs also need to want an election, for whatever reason, it hardly matters!
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 6:37 PM
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Labour have finally caved, having been put under pressure by the Lib Dem’s and SNP. We’ll have a December General Election. You're a tad premature. It will depend on Johnson accepting unpalatable amendments - votes at 16/17 and votes for Eu citizens. Too much like democracy for the Tories' liking. The eminently sensible deputy speaker has correctly concluded that you can’t change the rules to suit and not selected the 16-17 and EU citizen amendments for vote.
Why on earth would anyone choose to allow children to vote in a GE ?
Sounds like a case of attempted child exploitation to me!
(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 29, 2019, 6:37 PM)
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 6:39 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you?
Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie.
No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years.
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 8:12 PM
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Why on earth would anyone choose to allow children to vote in a GE ?
Sounds like a case of attempted child exploitation to me! LOL! "Conservative Party allowing 15-year-olds to vote for PM despite opposing 16-year-olds voting in general election" https://www.independent.co.uk/...ocrisy-a9007851.html The party of hypocrites.
Comparing the election of a leader of a political party by its paid up membership to a GE of the UK Parliament is borderline moronic.
I'm sure you can find other evidence of children voting maybe for which act on The Voice or which pairing on Strictly Come Dancing and proffer that as evidence that children should vote in a General Election!!!
Truth is kids are , if left to their own devices, not bothered about voting in a GE, any more than 18/19/20yr olds could be arsed to vote in the Referendum...but of course, certain lefty politicians know that young people are malleable, easily influenced and if they can motivate them with falsehoods, fears and targeted propoganda then they can be groomed, used and abused for purposes way beyond their ability and experience to comprehend.
I think we should let kids be kids for as long as possible.
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 29, 2019, 8:28 PM
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For someone resident in Scotland you seem remarkably ignorant of the success of extending the vote to 16/17 year olds in Scotland.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/...dence-from-scotland/
Just as there are many politically aware and thoughtful 16 and 17 year olds there are very many older voters who are hard of thinking and swallow the nonsense they are fed by the right wing media.
Age is no barrier to stupidity as the most recent referendum shows.
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 9:09 PM
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For someone resident in Scotland you seem remarkably ignorant of the success of extending the vote to 16/17 year olds in Scotland. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/...dence-from-scotland/ Just as there are many politically aware and thoughtful 16 and 17 year olds there are very many older voters who are hard of thinking and swallow the nonsense they are fed by the right wing media. Age is no barrier to stupidity as the most recent referendum shows.
16/17 yr olds are only a couple of years away from voting legally so there really is no rush to get them on the electoral roll.
The Holyrood administration obviously likes a good stunt and giving 16yr olds the vote in their elections was a good example of that......Just like free prescriptions etc.
I agree with you that there are many intelligent, thoughtful and engaged 16 yr olds but typically ( the majority) they see politics in binary terms couched in moral extremism, not in a balanced and reasoning way .
FYI those many older ( and not so old) allegedly right wing ( such a pointless and outdated term) voters are almost certainly not influenced by anything other than their own vision of the world they want based on what their life experiences have taught them.
Your belief that an extremist liberal autocracy is the natural destination of society is the flawed and puerile POV.
We are a majority Conservative voting country because thats the type of society that the majority of people want to live in.
That's why we rejected the EU.
That's why we will reject Labour and the LieDumbs!
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colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 29, 2019, 9:15 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you? Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie. No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years.
So that's a yes then. You are in denial.
Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 9:39 PM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you? Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie. No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years. So that's a yes then. You are in denial.
It's a No.
Your analaysis is flawed
Your claims are false.
But, You know that!
Are you at peace with yourself perpetuating a myth?
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colpic
Chelsea Transfer Target
Oct 29, 2019, 10:21 PM
Posts: 3394
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Post #125 of 143
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you? Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie. No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years. So that's a yes then. You are in denial. It's a No. Your analaysis is flawed Your claims are false. But, You know that! Are you at peace with yourself perpetuating a myth?
I am indeed at peace with myself. Every post you write only reinforces my view that scrapping Brexit is the right option.
Thanks for asking though.
Speak again after the next Brexit extension?
Where's the 'ignore this poster' button?
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Yatesman
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Oct 29, 2019, 10:27 PM
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The Holyrood administration obviously likes a good stunt and giving 16yr olds the vote in their elections was a good example of that......Just like free prescriptions etc.
bs! LOL! Reminiscent of the great George Foulkes: Lord Foulkes:. "The SNP are on a dangerous tack at the moment, What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas." Interviewer “Isn’t that a good thing?” Foulkes “Yes, but they’re doing it delberately.”
That would be hilarious except for the unforeseen consequences of a bankrupt and failing Scottish NHS and councils unable to raise funding therefore massive cutbacks in services.
Here in the Borders the NHS are mothballing wards, cutting beds in mental health provision and have to make millions in savings this year.
The Bordrs council is closing all its smaller children's parks. Services are being slashed and burned.........
All devolved services. All shambolic.
Its the same all over the People's Republic of Alba!
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 29, 2019, 10:53 PM
Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #127 of 143
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The Holyrood administration obviously likes a good stunt and giving 16yr olds the vote in their elections was a good example of that......Just like free prescriptions etc.
bs! LOL! Reminiscent of the great George Foulkes: Lord Foulkes:. "The SNP are on a dangerous tack at the moment, What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas." Interviewer “Isn’t that a good thing?” Foulkes “Yes, but they’re doing it delberately.” That would be hilarious except for the unforeseen consequences of a bankrupt and failing Scottish NHS and councils unable to raise funding therefore massive cutbacks in services. Here in the Borders the NHS are mothballing wards, cutting beds in mental health provision and have to make millions in savings this year. The Bordrs council is closing all its smaller children's parks. Services are being slashed and burned......... All devolved services. All shambolic. Its the same all over the People's Republic of Alba!
Remind us where Scotland’s block grant comes from.
Unlike Westminster, which has run up nearly £1 trillion in debt in the last 9 years the Scottish government must live within its means and can only spend what Westminster deigns to give the Scottish government.
As for Borders Council - Tory-run. Say no more.
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jon b
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Oct 29, 2019, 11:09 PM
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Post #128 of 143
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Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie.
No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years.
No, they didn't.
All they did was refuse to act on a private prosecution brought against Johnson for "misconduct in public office".
When the private prosecution was thrown out by the courts, Justice Rafferty said the "problem of false statements in the course of political campaigning is not new" and that Parliament had enacted laws to deal with "certain false campaign statements which it considers an illegal practice".
However, she said this did not include false statements relating to publicly available statistics, and found that the district judge's decision would have "extended the scope of the offence of misconduct in a public office."
Regarding the £350 Million per week slogan on the bus Justice Rafferty stated that "there would have been no complaint if Mr Johnson had used a figure of £350 million per week gross, or £250 million per week net".
The slogan on the bus did neither.
As for your "no court has ruled that Remain didn't lie", I'm not aware of any cases brought before them trying to say that they did. Do you know of any?
Both sides during the campaign made wild exaggerated predictions, but the slogan on the bus simply wasn't true.
.
(This post was edited by jon b on Oct 29, 2019, 11:12 PM)
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Yatesman
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Oct 30, 2019, 6:42 AM
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No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie Sometimes LOL! isn't quite enough.
I get your point but jon b has just admitted that the Remain campaign did lie, or wildly exagerate as he preferred to call it.
There's no moral high ground Remainers can take.
Obviously as the losing campaign there was never any need to take them to court, but there is enough evidence of Remainer lies out there.............Still going on,tbh, so as Leave has not been found to have lied and Darren Grimes was exonerated in court against the malicious charges brought by the discredited Electoral Commission, there is no mileage left in colpic's vexatious claim that Brexit is invalid.
(This post was edited by Yatesman on Oct 30, 2019, 6:44 AM)
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 30, 2019, 6:46 AM
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Meanwhile rumour has it that the All Blacks are demanding a people's semi final. Really? Wow, I didn't realise Eddie Jones had been putting massive lies on the sides of buses. . Oh dear, you're not still clutching at that straw are you? Not still in denial that Brexit is predicated on a series of massive lies are you? Yes because our courts said the Bus slogan wasn't a lie. No court has ruled that Remain didn't lie and haven't been lying for 3 years. So that's a yes then. You are in denial. It's a No. Your analaysis is flawed Your claims are false. But, You know that! Are you at peace with yourself perpetuating a myth? I am indeed at peace with myself. Every post you write only reinforces my view that scrapping Brexit is the right option. Thanks for asking though. Speak again after the next Brexit extension?
You'll be voting LieDumb then?
Says it all !
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Isaac
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 30, 2019, 6:49 AM
Posts: 9674
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Post #133 of 143
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Both sides during the campaign made wild exaggerated predictions, but the slogan on the bus simply wasn't true.
.
I do actually agree with you on that but the slogan on the bus was neither true or untrue, it was just a suggestion not a promise. It was at worst misleading but no more so than much of what has come out of the remain camp.
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 30, 2019, 6:50 AM
Posts: 1619
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #134 of 143
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The Holyrood administration obviously likes a good stunt and giving 16yr olds the vote in their elections was a good example of that......Just like free prescriptions etc.
bs! LOL! Reminiscent of the great George Foulkes: Lord Foulkes:. "The SNP are on a dangerous tack at the moment, What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas." Interviewer “Isn’t that a good thing?” Foulkes “Yes, but they’re doing it delberately.” That would be hilarious except for the unforeseen consequences of a bankrupt and failing Scottish NHS and councils unable to raise funding therefore massive cutbacks in services. Here in the Borders the NHS are mothballing wards, cutting beds in mental health provision and have to make millions in savings this year. The Bordrs council is closing all its smaller children's parks. Services are being slashed and burned......... All devolved services. All shambolic. Its the same all over the People's Republic of Alba! Remind us where Scotland’s block grant comes from. Unlike Westminster, which has run up nearly £1 trillion in debt in the last 9 years the Scottish government must live within its means and can only spend what Westminster deigns to give the Scottish government. As for Borders Council - Tory-run. Say no more.
Scotland has tax-raising powers devolved to it.
The mess this region is in is of its own making.
Every council, Tory , SNP, LD are making cuts to services on a Thatcherite scale.
Education, Transport, Policing...........all devolved, All in a mess.
We are the Venezuela of Northern Europe!
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Oct 30, 2019, 7:54 AM
Posts: 11894
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Post #135 of 143
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[
Scotland has tax-raising powers devolved to it.
The mess this region is in is of its own making.
Every council, Tory , SNP, LD are making cuts to services on a Thatcherite scale.
Education, Transport, Policing...........all devolved, All in a mess.
We are the Venezuela of Northern Europe!
SO you favour more taxation in Scotland to make up for Westminster Tory cuts. Interesting. Scotland is already mitigating the worst of that Tory Westminster throws at us - the bedroom tax, for example
Meanwhile in England it's all going swimmingly.
"UK debt tops £2 trillion"
"Northamptonshire council has gone bust."
"The NHS in England overspent by £4.3bn last year"
You just don't know how lucky you are, choosing to live in SNP-led Scotland.
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Yatesman
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Oct 30, 2019, 9:25 PM
Posts: 1619
Location: A Wee Toon in the Scottish Borders
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Post #136 of 143
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[
Scotland has tax-raising powers devolved to it.
The mess this region is in is of its own making.
Every council, Tory , SNP, LD are making cuts to services on a Thatcherite scale.
Education, Transport, Policing...........all devolved, All in a mess.
We are the Venezuela of Northern Europe! SO you favour more taxation in Scotland to make up for Westminster Tory cuts. Interesting.
Is that you telling me what I'm saying again?
You're good at doing that, you!
I favour the SNP administration getting on with running this region for the benefit of it's residents and not using it as a platform to promote it's party political ambitions of division and exclusivism.
Funny that you choose not to live up here and yet have such a rose tinted view of Scottish life.
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Yatesman
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Oct 31, 2019, 7:10 AM
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I favour the SNP administration getting on with running this region for the benefit of it's residents and not using it as a platform to promote it's party political ambitions of division and exclusivism.
Funny that you choose not to live up here and yet have such a rose tinted view of Scottish life. Do you think the country's residents would benefit from paying English level tuition fees, English level prescription charges, English level personal home care costs, English level bedroom tax whilst enjoying English level NHS waiting times? I choose not to live up here? LOL!
All benefits for the middle classes.
Except for the bedroom tax which was designed to encourage folk to downsize to allow growing families to move in to larger properties.
As someone who has spent the week working in a one bed social housing association flat in Peebles for a young couple with a new born baby who are stuck there because their Housing Association doesnt have a larger property available to them I would say the Scottish Government bedroom tax subsidy is NOT working for some Scottish residents.
This is what happens when dogma smashes in to Common Sense!
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Yatesman
First Team Star
Oct 31, 2019, 7:54 PM
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So when that child grows up you think it right it should have to pay £36,000 in tuition fees rather than £0 it would currently pay?
LOL! Yes, when that child grows up it should pay for its higher education but only once its future earnings surpass a given threshold. If it never earns it never pays. If it pays it learns a valuable life lesson.
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PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!
Nov 3, 2019, 9:21 AM
Posts: 11894
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
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Post #141 of 143
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Brexiteers: "We all knew what we were voting for."
May "Brexit means Brexit"
Johnson "I have a great Brexit deal"
Farage "This isn't Brexit."
LOL!
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steve walker
Administrator
Nov 3, 2019, 7:47 PM
Posts: 1851
Location: Staffordshire
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Take it to PM we are all bored with the Yatesman v PaulC scenario that takes over every politics thread. It's supposed to be an open discussion and you two if you realise it or not are prohibiting that.
Steve
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