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Brexit - Again

 

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Yatesman
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Sep 24, 2019, 1:30 PM

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Post #151 of 419 (936 views)
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Maybe Boris and his Brexit followers can get a retrial until they get the verdict they want!


Is there no European Court they can appeal to?


No because this is British Law.

Doesn't make a lot of difference re: Leaving the EU.

Boris can appeal .........to the electorate via an election, or he can prorogue parliament.....again!

Prorogation gets my vote!


Mr. T
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Post #152 of 419 (900 views)
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We have now entered very dangerous territory when unelected and unaccountable individuals override government decisions (and, therefore, the decisions of the people).

Lords Reed and Carnwarth sat today. They were two of three dissenting judges in the Miller case in 2017 (the third, Lord Hughes, has since retired). Then, Reed said it was not the business of the courts to interfere in the business of parliament. I wonder why he thinks differently now?


PaulC
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Post #153 of 419 (898 views)
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We have now entered very dangerous territory when unelected and unaccountable individuals override government decisions (and, therefore, the decisions of the people).


LOL!!!!!!!!!

(you were joking, weren't you?)


Mr. T
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Sep 24, 2019, 2:19 PM

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Post #154 of 419 (891 views)
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No.

Does your vocabulary extend beyond LOL?


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 2:49 PM

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Post #155 of 419 (878 views)
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Not when I'm laughing out loud. And to be fair there are a lot of LOL moments from Brexiteers on this thread.

Your complaint about our judiciary being unelected is deliciously Trumpian.


Mr. T
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Sep 24, 2019, 3:31 PM

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Post #156 of 419 (842 views)
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Why is it funny? It's deadly serious. Their being unelected doesn't matter until they interfere in the proceedings of Parliament. The English High Court knew its place. The Supreme Court apparently thinks itself better.


Blanc Mange
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Sep 24, 2019, 3:33 PM

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Post #157 of 419 (838 views)
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So if the result had gone the other way i'd wager you wouldn't be so magnanimous about it,fists pumping at the TV screen,veins bulging out your eyes whilst contemplating what to type next[;)....so parliament returns to do what exactly????? (thinks for a nanosecond) so here's some highlights so we don't have to watch it'

1.The majority of the house will be doing their let's not agree to a deal routine.
2.Boris will waffle on without really saying anything.
3.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign.
4.Liblabtor will become the new 3rd main party (bye bye SNP).
5.Ian Blackford will ask a question that takes a hour to ask (and we all know which question that will be)
6.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign.
7.Boris will be doing his lets have a general election spiel.
8.Jo Swinson tells the house that the referendum didn't reallly happen and wonders what all the fuss is all about.
9.Boris then tells everybody that WE WILL LEAVE ON THE 31ST OF OCTOBER just in case nobody knew!
10.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign (it's the new labour brexit policy)
11.Boris then asks why Jeremy is such a scaredy cat and not wanting a general election.
12.Emily Thornberry swivels her eyes and Dawn Butler shakes her head till its explodes at the shocking and unwarranted question.

As Madonna once sang 'Strike a pose there's nothing to it
Prorogue'


(This post was edited by Blanc Mange on Sep 24, 2019, 3:46 PM)


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 4:26 PM

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Post #158 of 419 (802 views)
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Why is it funny? It's deadly serious. Their being unelected doesn't matter until they interfere in the proceedings of Parliament. The English High Court knew its place. The Supreme Court apparently thinks itself better.


Their only interference is to stand up for the rights of our democratically elected parliament against the whims of our unelected executive. When chancersl ike Johnson and Cummings conspire to ride roughshod over our parliament to prevent parliament from representing us, with no other reason than to stymie scrutiny and debate , we have a right to seek redress in the law.

Johnson and Cummings are not above the law.

Just consider some of the Supreme Court's judgement:

"Parliament can make laws which everyone must obey: this would be undermined if the executive could, through the use of the prerogative, prevent Parliament from exercising its power to make laws for as long as it pleased. "

"“the conduct of government by a Prime Minister and Cabinet collectively responsible and accountable to Parliament lies at the heart of Westminster democracy”. The power to prorogue is limited by the constitutional principles with which it would otherwise conflict."

"a decision to prorogue (or advise the monarch to prorogue) will be unlawful if the prorogation has the effect of frustrating or preventing, without reasonable justification, the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions as a legislature and as the body responsible for the supervision of the executive. "
"The Court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification."


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 4:37 PM

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Post #159 of 419 (795 views)
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The whole laughable irony of all this, of course , is that until today Brexiteers, from Johnson down, were telling us prorogation was absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Now they have been rumbled by the highest court in the land and they bleat that declaring Johnson's con trick illegal is an attempt to stop Brexit.

LOL!

Thank goodness for those brave people in and out of parliament who have stood up to Johnson and Cummings.


Mr. T
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Post #160 of 419 (778 views)
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The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'.

Nevertheless, I agree with those who think Johnson was foolish to do this. He should have known the trouble it would bring. The word 'disingenuous' is used wrongly too often today but it was appropriately applied to Government arguments here just as it was to the hypocrites in the House who said they were respecting the referendum result but wanted to prevent 'no deal'. The argument that 'only 3-4 days business would be lost' is no more convincing than that of the Remain camp who said they needed the time to' hold the executive accountable'. There's been three years of 'holding the executive accountable' by trying to stop it enacting democratic decisions.


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 5:34 PM

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Post #161 of 419 (767 views)
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The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'. .


Your first sentence simply isn't true.

Our Parliament is sovereign. We elect MPs to represent us in that parliament.

We are a representative democracy, not a populist one.

We entrust our representatives to do what they believe is best for us. In most cases they do that, but not when it comes to Brexit. Most Tory MPs campaigned against leaving the Eu because of the untold damage it will inflict on the UK ... but many of those same Tory MPs now campaign for Brexit because they fear for their seats and are wiliing to abrogate their responsibilities as MPs to keep their seats. Thanks goodness for the (ex-)Tory MPs of principle like Grieve, Soubry, Allen, Boles.

No sane person can want a No Deal Brexit which is what we will get on 31 OCtober if Johnson, Cummings and the lunatic Tory right get their way. Thankfully there remains a sane majority in Parliament.


Mr. T
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:09 PM

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Post #162 of 419 (747 views)
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"We are a representative democracy, not a populist one."

Yes, under normal circumstances. Nobody would suggest for a minute that Parliament act on any or every suggestion from the people or that it should ask us for an answer to any or every question it might think of. In this matter, however, it asked us a simple, unambiguous question and we gave the answer on the basis of trust: that it would enact "what the people decided".

It has gone back on that promise on the spurious grounds that a WTO exit will 'cause untold damage to the UK'. This is pure speculation. You can no more predict that it will than I can predict that it won't. The forecasts of apocalypse are embarrassing and although it is fair to say that there might be some difficulties, most of these should have been headed off with long-term planning and will pass anyway with time. Leaving must mean a change in border and customs arrangements. That's what Parliament should have been discussing, not scurrying around in dark places to come up with schemes to delay our leaving or reverse the vote with bogus pleas of conscience.

Parliamentary sovereignty is national sovereignty. Parliament is ours. It is not entitled to act against us. It draws its power and legitimacy from us, not from itself and its own sense of being. It is correct to say that it is there to hold to account an over-mighty executive. It is not entitled to usurp the executive's power, as it has done.


Yatesman
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:11 PM

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Post #163 of 419 (744 views)
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The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'. .


Your first sentence simply isn't true.

Our Parliament is sovereign. We elect MPs to represent us in that parliament.

We are a representative democracy, not a populist one.

We entrust our representatives to do what they believe is best for us. In most cases they do that, but not when it comes to Brexit. Most Tory MPs campaigned against leaving the Eu because of the untold damage it will inflict on the UK ... but many of those same Tory MPs now campaign for Brexit because they fear for their seats and are wiliing to abrogate their responsibilities as MPs to keep their seats. Thanks goodness for the (ex-)Tory MPs of principle like Grieve, Soubry, Allen, Boles.

No sane person can want a No Deal Brexit which is what we will get on 31 OCtober if Johnson, Cummings and the lunatic Tory right get their way. Thankfully there remains a sane majority in Parliament.


We have a populist Parliament that has prorogued Democracy.

Parliament can sit tomorrow and nothing changes..........We are leaving the EU and all this does is continue the uncertainty.

Anyone who claims this country can't cope with leaving the EU is lying through their teeth and deliberately and disingenuously so.

Election Now...........The People vs The Remainer Establishment/Elite


jon b
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:12 PM

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Post #164 of 419 (741 views)
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Lords Reed and Carnwarth sat today. They were two of three dissenting judges in the Miller case in 2017 (the third, Lord Hughes, has since retired). Then, Reed said it was not the business of the courts to interfere in the business of parliament. I wonder why he thinks differently now?


I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case.

The judges seemed to focus on the failure of those lawyers to even attempt to justify the decision to prorogue. i.e.

"No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put before the court."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-49810680

.


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:19 PM

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Post #165 of 419 (737 views)
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It has gone back on that promise on the spurious grounds that a WTO exit will 'cause untold damage to the UK'. This is pure speculation. You can no more predict that it will than I can predict that it won't.


I can point to the opinion of countless experts. What can you point to to suggest otherwise?

(Yes, I know Brexiteers don't like experts)


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:21 PM

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Post #166 of 419 (735 views)
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Election Now...........The People vs The Remainer Establishment/Elite


That's what Johnson is pleading for.

The election will be after 31 October, when the damage from a No Deal Brexit has been avoided and Johnson and the Tories are toast.


Mr. T
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Post #167 of 419 (720 views)
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Experts on what? The usual crowd who predicted financial meltdown would follow a 'No' vote?

It IS speculation, often based on absolute worst-case scenarios. These 'experts' would do better to offer their advice on measures to reduce risk in the immediate post-exit period.


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:29 PM

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Post #168 of 419 (718 views)
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I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case.

The judges seemed to focus on the failure of those lawyers to even attempt to justify the decision to prorogue. i.e.

"No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put before the court."

.


It's not the lawyers' fault.

The Scottish Court of Session invited Johnson and his officialst o outline their reasons for prorogation. Answer came there none.

That there was no "case for the defence" was patently obvious. It was a ploy to stymie parliament and no one was willing to perjure themselves by pretending otherwise - not even Johnson.


Mr. T
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Post #169 of 419 (712 views)
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"I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case."

Probably because the case was weak, as I said elsewhere. Nevertheless, this is dangerous territory for judges. In 2017, Reed stressed the need for Parliament to hold the executive to account (no one should be questioning this) but he warned the judiciary to tread carefully.


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:37 PM

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Post #170 of 419 (708 views)
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Experts on what? The usual crowd who predicted financial meltdown would follow a 'No' vote?


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/...the-impact-would-be/

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/...ion-Fact-sheet-1.pdf

https://www.nfuonline.com/...no-deal-and-the-wto/

https://www.bloomberg.com/...t-could-be-quicktake

But hey, just google "effects of WTO Brexit" and find out for yourself.

Sometimes I think Brexiteers live in a kind of LA-La-Land where the whole world is plotting against their vision of the sunny uplands of a No Deal Brexit, by presenting them with unfortunate facts.


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:38 PM

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Post #171 of 419 (704 views)
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Probably because the case was weak, as I said elsewhere. Nevertheless, this is dangerous territory for judges. In 2017, Reed stressed the need for Parliament to hold the executive to account (no one should be questioning this) but he warned the judiciary to tread carefully.


Do you think our executive is above the law?


Mr. T
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:57 PM

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Post #172 of 419 (693 views)
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So many forecasts are based on the idea that trade will continue for some considerable time in the future as it is behaving now i.e. that the nature of economy will not change, that people's buying habits will not change, that imports and exports will not vary etc. In other words, the calculations are based on a snapshot (as with HMG's annual budget). The real world's not like that. The economy will adjust.

Leavers understand there will be difficulties. They also know that they can be overcome but that that requires some positive will. Too many opposed to leaving seem to be wishing failure upon the nation.


Mr. T
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Sep 24, 2019, 6:58 PM

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Post #173 of 419 (689 views)
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What law has been broken?


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 7:30 PM

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Post #174 of 419 (657 views)
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What law has been broken?


The Supreme Court concluded unanimously that Johnson’s attempt to silence Parliament was “unlawful”.

Take it up with the Supreme Court if you think his actions were lawful.


steve walker
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Sep 24, 2019, 7:34 PM

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Post #175 of 419 (652 views)
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What law has been broken?



Did you read or more likely watch the judgement from the Supreme Court when it was read out?

It's about an abuse of power ie the decision to suspend Parliament for 5 weeks was unnecessary in the opinion of all 11 Justices and took away the ability of Parliament to scrutinise the Government, who incidentally are also not elected... we as voters have no say in who is in Government only who is in Parliament.

Those in Parliament should be able to ask questions of the Government as to what is going on at this most crucial of times. The Court are merely upholding that right and they outlined very clearly why they have the precedent to do so.

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