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Brexit - Again

 



leohoenig
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Sep 3, 2019, 7:54 PM

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     Brexit - Again   or Reply Privately

Steve has asked that we restart with a new thread as it reduces the use of system resources, (most posters come in on the first new post when browsing).

Just a reminder to those of you posting on here, that the point is to discuss what is happening and what may happen. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a bad person, so argue the point as much as you like but always play the ball, not the man (or woman).


With the goings on in Parliament today, I think it was necessary to end the prorogation of discussion here.



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Yatesman
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Sep 3, 2019, 8:52 PM

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In Reply To
Steve has asked that we restart with a new thread as it reduces the use of system resources, (most posters come in on the first new post when browsing).

Just a reminder to those of you posting on here, that the point is to discuss what is happening and what may happen. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a bad person, so argue the point as much as you like but always play the ball, not the man (or woman).


With the goings on in Parliament today, I think it was necessary to end the prorogation of discussion here.


Got my phone out tonight , not something I usually do on holiday....Yate playing away at Exmouth in FACup replay so getting updates.......currently Yate bloody losing 1-0.......

Anyway point is I dont know what's going on in the UK re Parliament...
Can someone post an upshot of happenolings today by any chance?


northstandexile
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Sep 3, 2019, 8:53 PM

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Does anyone on this board trust Boris Johnson in anything he says?

I know I donít.


steve walker
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:02 PM

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Thanks to the EU scrapping roaming charges for mobile phone networks you should be able to check this without help from here in the same way that you can check on Yate updates. Can I recommend BBC Parliament channel.
But then you knew that already, you just wanted a summary you could argue against.


Yatesman
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:13 PM

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In Reply To
Thanks to the EU scrapping roaming charges for mobile phone networks you should be able to check this without help from here in the same way that you can check on Yate updates. Can I recommend BBC Parliament channel.
But then you knew that already, you just wanted a summary you could argue against.


That's me telt.....

Of course you're wrong....

Updates are via text from a friend and I'm not wsisting time scourin g the internet for info......I am on holiday y'know.... and the missus is off getting the cheese and biscuits....!

Btw roaming chargescetc are mere baubles of EU membership and perfectly negotiable outside of EU....
Yate bloody losing 2-0....shocking!


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Sep 3, 2019, 9:14 PM)


PaulC
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:33 PM

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In Reply To
Does anyone on this board trust Boris Johnson in anything he says?

I know I donít.


The QC at the Scottish Court of Sessions came up with a cracker today as he spoke of Johnson

"he doesn't get the benefit of any doubt. You look at the record, you try as best you can to determine the credibility and reliability of what is said against a background of an individual whose personal professional and political life has been characterised by incontinent mendacity or to make it plainer an unwillingness or inability to acknowledge and speak the truth"


steve walker
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:39 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Thanks to the EU scrapping roaming charges for mobile phone networks you should be able to check this without help from here in the same way that you can check on Yate updates. Can I recommend BBC Parliament channel.
But then you knew that already, you just wanted a summary you could argue against.


That's me telt.....

Of course you're wrong....

Updates are via text from a friend and I'm not wsisting time scourin g the internet for info......I am on holiday y'know.... and the missus is off getting the cheese and biscuits....!

Btw roaming chargescetc are mere baubles of EU membership and perfectly negotiable outside of EU....
Yate bloody losing 2-0....shocking!



Okay against my better judgement I will bite... here is the summary as I see it...Ö.

Johnson is very hopeful of securing a deal with the EU before Oct 31st which includes removing the Irish problem and is getting closer to it according to him. There have been 'meaningful discussions'.

The EU say they have had no proposals so far from Johnson to solve this problem so their stance is as unchanged as it always has been.

MPs are voting on a motion right now to allow a vote on a bill that will force an extension from Oct 31 to Jan 31 to allow a General Election or a Referendum, whichever, without us having left with no deal. It looks likely they will win, should know in a hour or so.

Due to Parliament being shut down for five weeks next week which cannot be reversed they have to get this through before Friday as there will be no time when Parliament reconvenes as the Queens speech normally takes 5 days of debate. Unlike a suspension for the Conferences season the prorogue means that all pending legislation going through the process is effectively wiped out.

The motion apparently says that the UK cannot leave the EU with no deal unless a deal has been agreed by Parliament or that Parliament has voted for a no deal.

I'm no expert but I think that's an accurate summary.

Meanwhile several Tory MPs have said they don't give a shit about the threat of being de-selected as they won't stand for the Tories at the next election anyway and another has defected to the Lib Dems to wipe out the Government majority.

Certainly Johnsons premiership after 1 day in Parliament is going not so well.


Ronsdog
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:45 PM

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In Reply To
Steve has asked that we restart with a new thread as it reduces the use of system resources, (most posters come in on the first new post when browsing).
.


Could someone explain to me why the EU Withdrawal Negotiations thread has been junked in favour of Brexit Again when the Wetherspoons thread continues unabated after some nine years in existence. Surely the same systems overload applies.

Or is it that the goings on of a pub chain are considered to be of more importance than the most lively political topic for over a generation?


leohoenig
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Sep 3, 2019, 9:49 PM

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The roaming across the EU is a very useful service and one that is down to EU regulation. Yes, the companies could have provided it without the EU insistence but just seeing the charges in Switzerland shows that this was not likely to happen.

Leaving the EU does not mean a sudden restart of high roaming charges - I would drop my current supplier if they restarted roaming charges and the others did not. Eventually, I would end up with an EU provider if all the UK suppliers resarted charges.

Anyway, taking the news from a single source, which may be biased it seems that Johnson has lost the arguments today and can be expected to lose the vote that follows. This only means that parliament gets to debate things tomorrow. If I was a Johnson supporting MP, (I am not), then I would still argue that he should lose the vote today - because if he can then win the vote tomorrow it gives some legitimacy to the course of action he is proposing.



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leohoenig
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Sep 3, 2019, 10:29 PM

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Post #10 of 419 (5775 views)
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Parliament 328, Government 301.



Fat AND Pompous.
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Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Yatesman
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Sep 3, 2019, 10:29 PM

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Post #11 of 419 (5774 views)
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In Reply To
The roaming across the EU is a very useful service and one that is down to EU regulation. Yes, the companies could have provided it without the EU insistence but just seeing the charges in Switzerland shows that this was not likely to happen.

Leaving the EU does not mean a sudden restart of high roaming charges - I would drop my current supplier if they restarted roaming charges and the others did not. Eventually, I would end up with an EU provider if all the UK suppliers resarted charges.

Anyway, taking the news from a single source, which may be biased it seems that Johnson has lost the arguments today and can be expected to lose the vote that follows. This only means that parliament gets to debate things tomorrow. If I was a Johnson supporting MP, (I am not), then I would still argue that he should lose the vote today - because if he can then win the vote tomorrow it gives some legitimacy to the course of action he is proposing.


Ok......thanks.

Last post for a while from me...

From what little I can glean a GE is likely now and the Remainer alliance
has scuppered getting any changes to Withdrawal Deal.....Parliament will have set itself against the choice democratically expressed of and by the people ......

Tories will win the GE by a massive margin.
Labour dead in the water.


steve walker
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Sep 3, 2019, 10:36 PM

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Post #12 of 419 (5769 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Steve has asked that we restart with a new thread as it reduces the use of system resources, (most posters come in on the first new post when browsing).
.


Could someone explain to me why the EU Withdrawal Negotiations thread has been junked in favour of Brexit Again when the Wetherspoons thread continues unabated after some nine years in existence. Surely the same systems overload applies.

Or is it that the goings on of a pub chain are considered to be of more importance than the most lively political topic for over a generation?



Since the EU thread had already been locked for a few days it seemed the perfect chance to start a new one.

It's nothing more sinister than that


buncranaboy
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Sep 3, 2019, 10:38 PM

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Withdrawal deal ? Johnson had no intention of pursuing one. Meaningful discussions my arse.
You can't believe a single word he utters.......


007Dale
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Sep 4, 2019, 6:57 AM

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It seems unlikely that the opposition parties are going to allow a general election before this legislation passes.

However, he has a couple more options;
1. He could issue new legislation allowing a general election, which would need a majority (not two-thirds majority), but it would be subject to ammendment.
2. He can ask the EU for an extension, as required by the new legislation, but then veto it as one of the 28 members has every right to.
3. He can allow the legislation to pass, then get a General Election, then seek to over-turn it. However, this is unlikely to happen before 31st October
4. The Leavers can try various tactics in the Lords (albeit they have a minority), such as trying to add ammendments or fillibuster.

However, having just dismissed 21 MPís from the Tory party, leaving him with 22 short of a working majority in Parliament, his options are receding.


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 8:09 AM

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He can also table of a vote of no confidence in himself.

He's such an inept chump he will lose that too.


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 8:34 AM

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Good old Daily Mail has got hold of the updated Yellowhammer document that Gove wouldn't release in case it scared the public


EXCLUSIVE: No Deal Brexit could lead to months of chaos, public disorder and food shortages, updated Government dossier reveals

Leaked government document warns few individuals are prepared for No Deal
The 150-page-assessment outlines Government's contingency plans for No Deal
Includes five-page annexe with 'reasonable worst case planning assumptions'
Version seen by the Mail was due to be published by Gove but pulled last night


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/...tter_impression=true


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 4, 2019, 8:35 AM)


leohoenig
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Sep 4, 2019, 9:15 AM

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If I understood correctly, the MPs were only threatened with withdrawal of the whip and deselection, and this will not be carried out if they return to the fold in today's debate. The warped logic of my mind says that it is right for today's debate to happen even if it ends in a Johnson victory. Some of the MPs that voted against him yesterday may well feel the same

A general election, while probable, is not the easiest way to settle matters. There is a risk that it ends up as a bipolar event between the "no-deal brexiters" and the "remainers", leaving those that want Brexit, but do not want no-deal with a stark choice. The fact that Johnson has been claiming to play a game of poker where the no-deal is a bluff in order to obtain a deal will confuse some into voting for something they do not want. It is very difficult to bluff in poker while all of your cards are face up, and I cannot see Johnson achieving this. He will of course try to heap the blame on this on the opposition, (especially the opposition within).

Throughout the year, as the government has stumbled over one vote after another it has been clear there is not a majority in Parliament for any of the three major options, (Repeal Article 50, The deal negotiated by Mrs May's team, No-Deal Brexit). If this is the case, then the logical answer is a new referendum - I would go a two question on the voting slip

  1. Do you agree with the Government's intention for Britain to exit the EU on (insert date here). Yes/No
  2. The Government's intention is to leave in accordance with the deal as set out, the alternative is to leave without a deal. If the vote is to exit the EU, then do you agree with the Government's intention to leave in accordance with the deal. Yes/No


I think the reason why this type of approach has not been taken by parliament is because regardless of the results it produces, there is currently a majority in the house that disagrees with it.

If we were to have the second referendum before an election and parliament still cannot agree to vote in accordance with results, then it is time for the general election with some MPs forced to go to their constituents and say that they voted against the clearly expressed views of the constituency.

[Yes, I can see at least one flaw in my argument but I have left that for someone else to point out]



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PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 9:53 AM

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In Reply To
If I understood correctly, the MPs were only threatened with withdrawal of the whip and deselection, and this will not be carried out if they return to the fold in today's debate. The warped logic of my mind says that it is right for today's debate to happen even if it ends in a Johnson victory. Some of the MPs that voted against him yesterday may well feel the same


Andrea Loathsome made that claim last night.

She was quickly slapped down. They've gone.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/...-gets-no-10-19396802


hawkwind
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Sep 4, 2019, 9:59 AM

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The Conservative whip was withdrawn from 21 MPs last night.


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 10:04 AM

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The Conservative whip was withdrawn from 21 MPs last night.


Rory Stewart got his news by text message.


leohoenig
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Sep 4, 2019, 10:05 AM

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I stand corrected - I saw the Leadsome quote yesterday and thought this was the decision



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PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 10:23 AM

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Towlawtom
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As an election is now imminent, this is likely to be the biggest election of all time where tactical voting comes into play. I would expect the Tory and Brexit party to form a pact putting up one candidate.
Therefore, I would urge all remain/ against no deal parties to do the same, to put up just one candidate that has the best chance of defeating either of the above.
The worst possible scenario for remainers is that it should stop a Johnson majority.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 1:15 PM

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Has anyone ever seen a PM get such a horse whipping at PMQs.

I almost felt sorry for him.


Blanc Mange
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Sep 4, 2019, 1:32 PM

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Iím no fan of Boris but youíve mustíve watching a different PMQís to me but saying that after Ian Blackfordís interminable 2nd question we probably both fell asleepLaugh


Karen Browne
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Sep 4, 2019, 2:24 PM

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In Reply To
Parliament 328, Government 301.


Who do Parliament get in the next round



Karen Browne
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Fixtures Officer


007Dale
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Sep 4, 2019, 2:27 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
Parliament 328, Government 301.


Who do Parliament get in the next round


The House of Lords. But thatís basically a walkover. Expect to see that in Ďmad resultsí


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Sep 4, 2019, 2:28 PM)


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 3:07 PM

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Iím no fan of Boris but youíve mustíve watching a different PMQís to me but saying that after Ian Blackfordís interminable 2nd question we probably both fell asleepLaugh



Corbyn mastered him. 6 questions not one answer. Statesman v waffling, bluster, blunder and pathetic attempts at jokes. All Johnson could do was attack Corbyn

Singh Dhesi eating him alive. Instead of apologising all Johnson could do was attavk Corbyn

https://twitter.com/...218435554918400?s=20

Swinson talking to him like a naughty boy
https://twitter.com/...245163723591681?s=20

Margot James tearing into him from his own benches with cheers round the house

https://twitter.com/...237162551906304?s=20

Skewered by Vernon Coker and Dominic Grieve too

As the Politics Home editor wrote

"Oh dear. After a torrid first #PMQs, Boris Johnson headed for the exit - then had to be told to turn back so he can sit next to Sajid Javid for the Spending Review. Not surprised he wanted to make a quick getaway, to be honest."

or John Crace
"Itís turning into Groundhog Day for Boris Johnson. Heís really not very good at this. Heís making Corbyn look brilliant"

Kevin McGuire
"And sacked Tory MP Margot James tears into Johnson over Dominic Cummingsí reign of terror. Uncomfortable #PMQs for Johnson and now Cummings"

"Boris Johnsonís #pmqs debut was the worst Iíve seen though in fairness Iíve only watched those of May, Cameron, Brown, Blair & Major. Binary Law mightíve struggled."


Yes I think you were watching something different. What did you thiink was good about the version you saw?


Blanc Mange
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Sep 4, 2019, 4:19 PM

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I never said he was good or bad but as a Tory rebel supporter he couldíve been better,as for a politician never answering a question well how unusual,I do like that out of the 3 reviews youíve chosen two of them happen to be of labour persuasion....strange thatWink


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 6:28 PM

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Well, I wouldnít like to be Dilyn the dog when Boris gets home.

ďIs that the PM shouting? The last time he did that the police had to be calledĒ
John Macdonald


Towlawtom
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Sep 4, 2019, 6:55 PM

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Brexit has nothing of benefit for British working class people only the rich. I am struggling to understand why it's being so vehemently campaigned for.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !

(This post was edited by Towlawtom on Sep 4, 2019, 6:55 PM)


jon b
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When the Daily Mail describes his performance at a "calamitous" PMQs as "nervous and flustered" I think we can safely say it was a car crash debut.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/...calamitous-PMQs.html

I found it interesting to see how badly he reacted under pressure. Not a good omen given current circumstances. I never thought a UK PM would use the insult "big girl's blouse" in the House of Commons. Other than that low point, his approach appeared to consist of bluster and pre-prepared soundbite jibes.


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 7:41 PM

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The contrast with the considered, measured, polite style of Corbyn was remarkable.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 4, 2019, 7:42 PM)


Tykeoldboy
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Johnson didn't do himself any favours by referring to the opposion leader as Corbyn, the speaker immediately pulled him up on that. Johnson also referred Corbyn as a "chlorinated chicken" and "Caracas" a play on the word "Crackers" and referring to the current problems in Venezuela



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.

(This post was edited by Tykeoldboy on Sep 4, 2019, 10:04 PM)


PaulC
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Sep 4, 2019, 9:45 PM

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and "big girl's blouse"


Tykeoldboy
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No "No deal Brexit" and no General Election. Not a great day for the new PM with two votes and two defeats. Now the UK bumbles along with a minority government.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


splodge
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When Boris lost the vote last night and then got up to speak, with the look of clear anger on his face, I was half expecting something akin to Richard Harris in the film version of Cromwell when he spoke to Parliament, soldiers coming in, blocking the doorways, arresting people who didn't agree with him.



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jon b
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Post #38 of 419 (1342 views)
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Perhaps the problem is we ended up with the wrong Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-49594793

Maybe we should have tried to persuade Joe or Labour's Alan to be PM.

.


leohoenig
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So can we have the next election with the correct Johnson, and maybe the correct Milliband.
(If the UK gets relegated in the meantime, I suggest Gary Johnson)



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dottirofhod
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I suggest Erin =






July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



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I suggest Holly Johnson then we can all "Relax". See what I did there? Welcome to the displeasuredome



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dottirofhod
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 I do hope the two tribes don't rage too hard and with the power of love learn to relax and cum to a decision.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



Tykeoldboy
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I do hope the two tribes don't rage too hard and with the power of love learn to relax and cum to a decision.

Shouldn't this be Power of Gove Laugh



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


KnowYourMarket
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As Hilary Benn said. Once we leave the EU (with or without a deal) that will be the end of the beginning. The beginning has already taken 3 years.

This will drag on for years whether we stay, leave or do the hokey cokey. I cannot see a time in the near future where Brexiteers or Remainers will change their mind.



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PaulC
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As Hilary Benn said. Once we leave the EU (with or without a deal) that will be the end of the beginning. The beginning has already taken 3 years.

This will drag on for years whether we stay, leave or do the hokey cokey. I cannot see a time in the near future where Brexiteers or Remainers will change their mind.


Some Brexiteers have been doing.

There is now a majority favouring Remain.


leohoenig
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PaulC - that is according to pollsters. Whether you or I like it or not, Yatesman has always been right in saying the only votes that matter have been won by Brexit supporters.

While I have always been a remainer, I do not believe we should ignore the referendum on a change of parliament. If we are to offer remain back to the populace, then another referendum is required. See my "two question" scenario a few posts back and note that the questions are slanted to favour leaving with a deal.



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PaulC
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Post #47 of 419 (1044 views)
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PaulC - that is according to pollsters. Whether you or I like it or not, Yatesman has always been right in saying the only votes that matter have been won by Brexit supporters.

While I have always been a remainer, I do not believe we should ignore the referendum on a change of parliament. If we are to offer remain back to the populace, then another referendum is required. See my "two question" scenario a few posts back and note that the questions are slanted to favour leaving with a deal.


Absolutely. Another referendum is required. Itís so obvious itís hardly worth mentioning.

The polls have shown for a long time that the tide has turned. Thatís why Brexiteers donít want one. I regularly cite latest polls because Brexiteers regularly parrot ďnothing has changedĒ ďwe still want outĒ when that clearly isnít true.

They are happy to hold 3 complex GE votes in 4 years but not two binary referendums in 3.5 years.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 6, 2019, 8:24 AM)


Ronsdog
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Post #48 of 419 (1029 views)
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In Reply To
PaulC - that is according to pollsters. Whether you or I like it or not, Yatesman has always been right in saying the only votes that matter have been won by Brexit supporters.

While I have always been a remainer, I do not believe we should ignore the referendum on a change of parliament. If we are to offer remain back to the populace, then another referendum is required. See my "two question" scenario a few posts back and note that the questions are slanted to favour leaving with a deal.



Absolutely. Another referendum is required. Itís so obvious itís hardly worth mentioning.

The polls have shown for a long time that the tide has turned. Thatís why Brexiteers donít want one. I regularly cite latest polls because Brexiteers regularly parrot ďnothing has changedĒ ďwe still want outĒ when that clearly isnít true.

They are happy to hold 3 complex GE votes in 4 years but not two binary referendums in 3.5 years.


Would a second referendum solve the problem that currently exists?

Consider for a moment the possibility that it returned the same result.
Jo Swinson the leader of the Lib Dems has stated publicly that she would not or ever accept such a scenario. Pretty undemocratic and illiberal if you ask me.

The current stated position of the Labour Party is that they would campaign to remain, even if they held power and managed to negotiate a new deal, as was stated by their Foreign Affairs spokesman on yesterday evenings Question Time. What a shambolic position to hold.

No, the only way forward is to hold another GE and hope that the country will give a clear majority to one party which can then end this interminable deadlock.

Either way it would be a travesty if the original result is not enacted.


Part-Timer
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Post #49 of 419 (978 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
PaulC - that is according to pollsters. Whether you or I like it or not, Yatesman has always been right in saying the only votes that matter have been won by Brexit supporters.

While I have always been a remainer, I do not believe we should ignore the referendum on a change of parliament. If we are to offer remain back to the populace, then another referendum is required. See my "two question" scenario a few posts back and note that the questions are slanted to favour leaving with a deal.



Absolutely. Another referendum is required. Itís so obvious itís hardly worth mentioning.

The polls have shown for a long time that the tide has turned. Thatís why Brexiteers donít want one. I regularly cite latest polls because Brexiteers regularly parrot ďnothing has changedĒ ďwe still want outĒ when that clearly isnít true.

They are happy to hold 3 complex GE votes in 4 years but not two binary referendums in 3.5 years.


Would a second referendum solve the problem that currently exists?

Consider for a moment the possibility that it returned the same result.
Jo Swinson the leader of the Lib Dems has stated publicly that she would not or ever accept such a scenario. Pretty undemocratic and illiberal if you ask me.

The current stated position of the Labour Party is that they would campaign to remain, even if they held power and managed to negotiate a new deal, as was stated by their Foreign Affairs spokesman on yesterday evenings Question Time. What a shambolic position to hold.

[b[No, the only way forward is to hold another GE and hope that the country will give a clear majority to one party which can then end this interminable deadlock.[b/]

Either way it would be a travesty if the original result is not enacted.

Lest we forget: neither of the two main parties have a united view on what should happen. Even a parliament with one of them in a clear majority could leave us in exactly the same position as we are at the moment. Only a Liberal Democrat Party or a Brexit Party majority is going to resolve that conundrum. Either of those would, of course, cause all manner of other problems.


Ronsdog
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In Reply To

[b[No, the only way forward is to hold another GE and hope that the country will give a clear majority to one party which can then end this interminable deadlock.[b/]

Either way it would be a travesty if the original result is not enacted.

Lest we forget: neither of the two main parties have a united view on what should happen. Even a parliament with one of them in a clear majority could leave us in exactly the same position as we are at the moment. Only a Liberal Democrat Party or a Brexit Party majority is going to resolve that conundrum. Either of those would, of course, cause all manner of other problems.


When Johnson assumed leadership of the Tory Party he did so with a clear agenda. He assumed power with a clear message to become the party of leave. In that case his prorogation of parliament was clearly designed to instil discipline throughout his party by confronting his hardcore opponents which once they voted against allowed him to expel them. His party was already split and he was always leading a minority government in all but name. The sackings merely formalised this.

Something that the hapless May should have done when her cabinet leaked and briefed against her.

The Remainers saw the purge of their favourite Tories as a terrible loss of talent, a cataclysmic blow to the credibility of the party, its final death even; yet to Leave voters, losing anti-Brexit irreconcilables, especially overrated establishment figures, was a huge step in the right direction and proof of Borisís seriousness.

In any case, the Prime Minister needs a party with a single message: every candidate will have to sign up to his plans. This will be the only way that he can fight off the Brexit Party. If he wins, perhaps with a slender majority, Johnson will need to be able to count on every one of his MPs.

Whatever the outcome the Tories are now being corralled into a united force under his plan to exit the EU.

Only a GE will see if this high risk plan works.

Of course the remainers will attempt to delay a future GE for fear of this strategy being successful.


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Sep 6, 2019, 1:17 PM)


MelChester
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Post #51 of 419 (1304 views)
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A right wing elite party who want to leave with no deal so it's leaders don't have to abide by forth coming EU rules about offshore investments.

Don't think 17.4 million people voted for that, 25 to 30 million voted for remain or soft / medium Brexit .Not quite sure where no deal creapt in other than for the rich to get richer. I dislike the far left almost as much as I do the fat right.


northstandexile
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Sep 6, 2019, 1:28 PM

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Post #52 of 419 (1298 views)
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What I canít get over is how can any deal be financially better off than remaining.

No country is going to give us a better trade deal than the one we have as part of the EU.


Ronsdog
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Not quite sure where no deal creapt in other than for the rich to get richer. I dislike the far left almost as much as I do the fat right.


It crept in as a strategy to unite the Leave vote and nullify the threat to the Tories of the Brexit party. If Johnson is right in his thinking then after over three years of dithering and obfuscation by Parliamentarians, we will finally rid ourselves of the EU yoke.

As a leaver, who is neither rich nor privilidged, along with 34% of the total electorate I support this way forward. The prize is far more important than the means to it.


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Sep 6, 2019, 1:37 PM)


Towlawtom
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What I canít get over is how can any deal be financially better off than remaining.

No country is going to give us a better trade deal than the one we have as part of the EU.


Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Mr. T
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Something that the hapless May should have done when her cabinet leaked and briefed against her.

Except May was really for staying. The Chequers business showed this, when Baker, Davis and Johnson realised what an appalling document the WA was.


northstandexile
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Sep 6, 2019, 6:28 PM

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What I canít get over is how can any deal be financially better off than remaining.

No country is going to give us a better trade deal than the one we have as part of the EU.


Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh


Control of our borders? When we have no border controls between NI and ROI.


MelChester
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Not quite sure where no deal creapt in other than for the rich to get ricaher. I dislike the far left almost as much as I do the fat right.


It crept in as a strategy to unite the Leave vote and nullify the threat to the Tories of the Brexit party. If Johnson is right in his thinking then after over three years of dithering and obfuscation by Parliamentarians, we will finally rid ourselves of the EU yoke.

As a leaver, who is neither rich nor privilidged, along with 34% of the total electorate I support this way forward. The prize is far more important than the means to it.


Itís actually split the leave vote, because many did not vote for or do not want no deal. Many leave voters would prefer to remain than leave with a no deal.


steve walker
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Not quite sure where no deal creapt in other than for the rich to get ricaher. I dislike the far left almost as much as I do the fat right.


It crept in as a strategy to unite the Leave vote and nullify the threat to the Tories of the Brexit party. If Johnson is right in his thinking then after over three years of dithering and obfuscation by Parliamentarians, we will finally rid ourselves of the EU yoke.

As a leaver, who is neither rich nor privilidged, along with 34% of the total electorate I support this way forward. The prize is far more important than the means to it.


Itís actually split the leave vote, because many did not vote for or do not want no deal. Many leave voters would prefer to remain than leave with a no deal.



I don't think 'no deal' was ever touted as a favourable outcome by the Leave campaign in the run up to the Referendum. We were told that since we were already compliant with EU regulations it could be sorted as the easiest deal in history.

Similarly the Irish border situation was hardly ever mentioned unless I am going senile and forget and when I look back on Google the few references there are to it were dismissed by many including our current PM as being "not a problem".

Certainly seems to be a problem now.


Chris1963
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Sep 6, 2019, 8:35 PM

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[reply

Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats


1) We already have control of our own borders. We have never been part of the Schengen area. This is due to the UK being an island nation.

2) We already make our own laws, in our own Parliament. Same with all the other EU members. The EU allows them to make their own laws.

3) Unelected bureaucrats? You mean the British Civil Service?

The truth is that Brexiteers are fighting an imaginary dragon. Rather than see the EU as an enemy, they should look to it as a friend and a protector against Vladimir Putin, who would love to see the EU collapse.


Richard Rundle
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The truth is that Brexiteers are fighting an imaginary dragon. Rather than see the EU as an enemy, they should look to it as a friend and a protector against Vladimir Putin, who would love to see the EU collapse.


And you could easily replace the name "Vladimir Putin" with the name "Donald Trump" and the post still makes sense.


Towlawtom
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[reply

Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats


1) We already have control of our own borders. We have never been part of the Schengen area. This is due to the UK being an island nation.

2) We already make our own laws, in our own Parliament. Same with all the other EU members. The EU allows them to make their own laws.

3) Unelected bureaucrats? You mean the British Civil Service?

The truth is that Brexiteers are fighting an imaginary dragon. Rather than see the EU as an enemy, they should look to it as a friend and a protector against Vladimir Putin, who would love to see the EU collapse.


My comments were of course said in jest Chris1963. Its the usual bullshit arguments the leavers give when asked why they voted leave.

Usually if someone says to you " The Eu is run by Unelected bureaucrats", It would be common sense to research how our UK parliament is run where the EU puts our so called democratic process to shame!



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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Unelected bureaucrats. Blimey, we have an unelected legislature packed with has beens, cronies and people who have bankrolled parties.

Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 6, 2019, 11:31 PM)


007Dale
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[reply/]
Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


I know, that undemocratic Johnson, fancy trying to call a General Election in order to deliver a referendum result voted for by the people.


MelChester
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[reply/]
Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


I know, that undemocratic Johnson, fancy trying to call a General Election in order to deliver a referendum result voted for by the people.


No he doesn't, he wants to deliver a Brexit very few voted for and only a small percentage want. The circumstances have been explained many times this week about him calling an election at this time is not of benefit to the other parties and the only person it would help is Boris and his cronies. They have engineered this mess let them stew. Many remainers would except a soft Brexit that was proposed in 2016, but the Tories have been infilttrated by a right wing elite who want to force a no deal to feather their on nests. If a no deal happened there would be very few winners and the worst losers would not be many remainers but those who are less well off and who voted for Brexit. They will be the hardest hit.


PaulC
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[reply/]
Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


I know, that undemocratic Johnson, fancy trying to call a General Election in order to deliver a referendum result voted for by the people.


We are getting a General Election. After Johnson has obeyed the will of our sivereign Parliament.


007Dale
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[reply/]
Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


I know, that undemocratic Johnson, fancy trying to call a General Election in order to deliver a referendum result voted for by the people.


No he doesn't, he wants to deliver a Brexit very few voted for and only a small percentage want.


Iím intrigued as to why, if as you say so few want this Brexit, why opposition parties are so frightened to have an election - it can only be because they know exactly who will win and why.

Pro-Brexit parties have won every national election since 2014. Theyíll win the 2019 General Election whenever it comes. At worst, all this legislation has done is delay Brexit to 31st January, when Boris (with a new Parliament reflecting the will of the people) will enact a Brexit deal or no-deal. And as all this happens, labour continue to shed votes to parties with a clearly defined Brexit position.


PaulC
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[reply/]
Add to that the anti-democratic chicanery of Johnson and the UK really isn;t much better than a banana republic.


I know, that undemocratic Johnson, fancy trying to call a General Election in order to deliver a referendum result voted for by the people.


No he doesn't, he wants to deliver a Brexit very few voted for and only a small percentage want.


Iím intrigued as to why, if as you say so few want this Brexit, why opposition parties are so frightened to have an election - it can only be because they know exactly who will win and why.

Pro-Brexit parties have won every national election since 2014. Theyíll win the 2019 General Election whenever it comes. At worst, all this legislation has done is delay Brexit to 31st January, when Boris (with a new Parliament reflecting the will of the people) will enact a Brexit deal or no-deal. And as all this happens, labour continue to shed votes to parties with a clearly defined Brexit position.


You need to think things through rather than just recycle Tory press releases.

There will be a General Election. It will take place after 31 October.

15 October is what Johnson wants. He is begging, pleading for that date because two days later he has to report back to Brussels. How embarrassing will that be?

By 31 October he will probably be forced to resign because the PM will either have to beg for an extension or revoke Article50.

The opposition parties have him and the Tories by the short and curlies.

The Tory press spin the yarn about Corbyn being cowardly, those who believe what Tories tell them swallow it, whilst the reality is the opposition parties are playing a blinder, They have given Johnson and Cummings a thrashing.


PaulC
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Oh, as for Pro Brexit parties winning n 2019, whenever it comes, study the latest poll.


ICM (Election Before Oct 31) - 2019-09-03
Con: 37%
Lab: 30%
LDem: 16%
BRX: 9%
Grn: 4%
SNP: 3%
UKIP: 1%
PC: 1%

Projection
Con: 340 (+22)
Lab: 217 (-45)
SNP: 41 (+6)
LDem: 30 (+18)
PC: 3 (-1)
Grn: 1 (-)
Changes w/ 2017



ICM (Election after Oct 31 and still in EU) - 2019-09-03
Lab: 28%
Con: 28%
BRX: 18%
LDem: 17%
Grn: 4%
SNP: 3%
UKIP: 2%
PC: 1%
CHUK: 0%


Projection
Con: 266 (-52)
Lab: 261 (-1)
SNP: 50 (+15)
LDem: 50 (+38)
PC: 3 (-1)
BRX: 1 (+1)
Grn: 1 (-)
Changes w/ 2017


MelChester
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Post #69 of 419 (994 views)
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I said no deal not Brexit, they are very different.

The election thing has been explained to death, the other parties are not stupid.


PaulC
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Marina Hydeís opinion piece on Boris Johnson is a gem.


ďAs for his turns away from Westminster, Thursday afternoon found him at a Yorkshire police academy, where he appeared deeply confused. He resembled a political Elvis Ė twilight years Ė whoíd had to be slapped awake on the tour bus by his manager, given some of his special medicine, and shoved on to greet the LA crowd with the words ďHello Philadelphia!Ē This, but in Wakefield.Ē

https://www.theguardian.com/...escort-conservatives


PaulC
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ďYes, sir, of course youíre Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.Ē




MelChester
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At the moment x 2!


007Dale
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This is so funny, one fact destroys all this Remain propaganda; Jeremy Corbyn will still be Labour leader after 31st October.

The U.K. will not elect a hard-left Government, before or after the 31st October.

Post any Opinion Poll you can find, it doesnít matter, because when the British are eventually allowed to go to the polls, the Brexit supporting parties will win. Theyíve won actual elections consistently over the last six years.

The country still wants to leave, we will leave. 31st October, 31st January or any date in between.

Iíll let you go and find another opinion poll to stand behind...


MelChester
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Of course they won't elect a far left government, like they won't elect a far right one either. Both the Tories and Labour have alienated many supporters to move to the centre ground. If pacts are not formed 4 or 5 parties will get a reasonable number of seats and no one will be in overall control. We will probably have a situation where the party that gets the most votes (not seats) will not be in power


PaulC
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In Reply To
Post any Opinion Poll you can find, it doesnít matter, because when the British are eventually allowed to go to the polls, the Brexit supporting parties will win.


Can you explain why the polls shows supporters of pro-Brexit supporters are now in the minority?

In the absence of Yatesman, you are doing a great job on his behalf, arguing against reality.


Towlawtom
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Being in the EU costs each person in the UK a whole 34p a day .... 34p a day!!


For all the access, opportunities, no European war conflicts for 70 years, freedom of trading, protection of rights and safety standards for UK citizens, I would happily pay a hell of a lot more!

eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2019/03/03/eu-membership-is-a-bargain


Do brexit voters still believe this myth that the EU "tells us what to do"? I really wish people would research the facts and stop spouting this Shite!. All laws passed by the European parliament have to be agreed by ALL member states. Each country can use its veto if it disagrees, including the UK - therefore, all the laws passed by the EU which affect the UK have been agreed with by the UK!! And every voter in the UK gets a vote in deciding who they send to the European parliament to make these decisions on our behalf. Unfortunately, lots of people vote to send someone like Farage who sits on his arse, fails to attend any meetings, but happily collects the cash thank you very much.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Mr. T
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QMV has all but replaced unanimity and the veto.


Towlawtom
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It's all going Pete Tong for Boris, Amber Rudd has resigned from Cabinet and Conservative party.!



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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In Reply To
It's all going Pete Tong for Boris, Amber Rudd has resigned from Cabinet and Conservative party.!


ďPolitical vandalismĒ

ĎAssault on decency and democracyĒ

ďI no longer believe leaving with a deal is the governmentís main ibjectiveĒ


007Dale
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And yet, those with a perversion to remain still donít understand the mood of the electorate.


jon b
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"perversion to remain"?

I suppose it would be equally valid/invalid to speak of "perversion to leave".

Maybe we should stick to describing the different sides as being those who believe the UK is best served by staying in the EU and those who believe the UK is best served by leaving the EU.

We're moving into dangerously tense and emotive times. Some of the exchanges inside Parliament last week were bitter and vitriolic. And the atmosphere between the rival demos today was toxic and near violent.

I don't see the point of a second Referendum when it appears that whichever side won it would be by a very narrow margin. And I'm not convinced that a General Election would produce a clear majority for either side.

Although I voted remain in 2016 I think that ship has sailed. Like Kinnock Junior I think the best or least worst way out of this mess would be to try May's deal once more. There appear to be plenty of Labour MPs who, with no-deal exit looming, now fervently wish they'd voted in favour of it last time out.

.


007Dale
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In Reply To
"perversion to remain"?

I suppose it would be equally valid/invalid to speak of "perversion to leave".

.


No, the language is specifically and only appropriate to be used for remainers wishing to block the will of the people.

Hereís the dictionary definition of the word;
ďDistortion or corruption of the original courseĒ

Personally donít think it could be swapped as youíve suggested.


leohoenig
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Post #83 of 419 (1198 views)
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Perversion to Remain, Perversion to Brexit?
I think you will find the problem is the potential no-deal Brexit, which many in the Conservative Party will not accept, even though they accept Brexit per se.


It is the distrust of Johnson's policies within his own party that is tearing his government apart.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



PaulC
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In Reply To
And yet, those with a perversion to remain still donít understand the mood of the electorate.


Can you explain these riddles to me.

IN 2016 we voted narrowly to leave

In 2019 all the polls indicate we want to remain.

Why should a decision made in 2016 trump the will of the people in 2019?

Why should we punish ourselves by doing something we no longer appear to want to do?

Shouldn't a confirmatory referendum be the obvious solution? Only one group is against such a referendum - why is that?

Only 35% want to leave iwithout a deal. Why should we leave without a deal?


007Dale
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Post #85 of 419 (1176 views)
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Here is where iím at with Brexit;

1. Parliament doesnít reflect the British Peopleís position on Brexit. Thatís factual. 52/48 public view, majority of MPís are remain.

2. Parliament will never vote for a deal, whatever deal, whateverís in it. The Labour Party policy is to campaign against any Tory deal. Even if itís the best deal in the world, Parliament will vote against it. Boris knows that, we all know that.

3. Therefore we need a new Parliament, whether to approve a cracking new deal (unlikely weíll get this from the EU) or to allow a no-deal Brexit.

4. I believe the British people will deliver a pro-Brexit Parliament in 2019 (my opinion), as they overwhelmingly thought they were doing in 2017.

5. However, if the voters deliver a hung parliament (or worse), then I would conclude the only way out of this is for another referendum.

I personally donít believe weíll need a new referendum after the GE, because people will get the Leave Parliament they were promised in 2017. However, if people truly have changed there mind (& no national votes since 2016 have indicated that) then weíll get a Remain parliament and consequently a second referendum.


PaulC
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1 The 52/48 split was three and a half years ago. Not now.
2 The Labour party is irrelevant if the Tories had delivered on their promises
3 Only 35% want no deal
4 The only way that will happen is through the vageries of our electoral system. The majority now supports remain parties.
5 The EU may decide enough is enough. No extension without referendum,
6 Johnson is an incompetent, lying buffoon.


Richard Rundle
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In Reply To
Here is where iím at with Brexit;

1. Parliament doesnít reflect the British Peopleís position on Brexit. Thatís factual. 52/48 public view, majority of MPís are remain.


Those "majority of MPs" were elected with their views on remain/leave well known, 12 months after the referendum. The people of the UK elected those members with those views so perhaps it's the poeple's fault that they elected the wrong MPs?


PaulC
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The voice of Brexit

https://twitter.com/...348038608408576?s=20


Towlawtom
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In Reply To


That's shocking!

Brexit supporters can't defend that by saying your are bound to get the odd idiot because there are several odd idiots in that clip.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Ronsdog
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The whole sorry mess that is Brexit may yet be taken out of Parliaments hands if reports coming out of France are to be believed....

"There will be no extension to Brexit in the current circumstances",

according to the France's Foreign Minister.

Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Sunday that as things stand, a delay beyond the October 31 deadline would not be granted.

Asked if a Brexit delay was possible, the French minister told Europe 1 radio not under the current conditions.

"We are not going to do [extend] this every three months," he added..........

Suits me Cool


Towlawtom
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Sep 8, 2019, 3:05 PM

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Post #91 of 419 (1084 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Here is where iím at with Brexit;

1. Parliament doesnít reflect the British Peopleís position on Brexit. Thatís factual. 52/48 public view, majority of MPís are remain.


Those "majority of MPs" were elected with their views on remain/leave well known, 12 months after the referendum. The people of the UK elected those members with those views so perhaps it's the poeple's fault that they elected the wrong MPs?


Interesting also that the majority of the tory mps that lost the whip the majority of their constituents voted remain.. SO they were sacked for going against their constituents wishes.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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Sep 8, 2019, 3:10 PM

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Oh wad some pow'r the giftie gie us, to see oorsels as others see us.

The view from Canada


ďBut the position of Mr. Johnsonís new government is that since Britain voted for the idea of skydiving, then skydiving there must be. On Oct. 31, Britain has no option but to jump out of a plane, parachute or no parachute.Ē

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...ed+Web+Article+Links


Yatesman
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In Reply To
Oh wad some pow'r the giftie gie us, to see oorsels as others see us.

The view from Canada


ďBut the position of Mr. Johnsonís new government is that since Britain voted for the idea of skydiving, then skydiving there must be. On Oct. 31, Britain has no option but to jump out of a plane, parachute or no parachute.Ē

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/...ed+Web+Article+Links

Worrying about the view of another nation's media is no substitute for democracy.

Selective polling is no substitute for democracy.

Parliamentary distaste for the Express wishes ofvthechoi polloi is no substitute for democracy.

The only 'opinon'.....The only 'statistic'.....The only 'poll' that matters is the one expressed by the UK electorate in 2016.

There is no such phenomenon as a 'narrow' victory in a fptp electoral plebiscite.

The vote was fair, legal and open to all.

There was no 'deal's requisite in delivering Brexit , even if optimal.
Anyway, that bird flew the minute Remainers broke our democratic contract that requires losers' consent.
Their undermining of our negotiating position and cohorting with foreign interests has hamstrung the Govt for the past 3yrs.

No Deal is the Brexit we will get.
It is the Brexit we deserve.
It is the only Brexit that will lead to order from this chaos.

The order will be I the form of a total reformation of our system of political representation.
Leftys should welcome that....

If they really knew what left wing politics was truly about.......Envy of the rich is a nihilistic self defeating ideology and has failed many times throughout history.....Only the truest of morons based their political stance on that failed ideologue.

How's the weather?
Too hot here !


PaulC
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Selective polling LOL!

Hereís 116 polls for you.

http://www.no2brexit.com/polls.htm

Enjoy.


jon b
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In Reply To
The whole sorry mess that is Brexit may yet be taken out of Parliaments hands if reports coming out of France are to be believed....

"There will be no extension to Brexit in the current circumstances",

according to the France's Foreign Minister.

Jean-Yves Le Drian said on Sunday that as things stand, a delay beyond the October 31 deadline would not be granted.

Asked if a Brexit delay was possible, the French minister told Europe 1 radio not under the current conditions.

"We are not going to do [extend] this every three months," he added..........

Suits me Cool


And which presumably means we'll hear less from Brexiters about the EU desperately hanging on to us for our monetary contribution.

.


Richard Rundle
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In Reply To
The only 'opinon'.....The only 'statistic'.....The only 'poll' that matters is the one expressed by the UK electorate in 2016.


In a parliamentary democracy, the only "polls" that matter are those taken in parliament.


PaulC
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Another view of yesterdayís pro-Brexit yobs.

They behave remarkably like the yobs who follow the England football team around the world.

https://twitter.com/...421368002895877?s=21


PaulC
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The Boris Bounce appears to be of the dead cat Variety.
New ComRes Poll - 4-6 September 2019

LAB- 28% (+1)
CON 26% (-5)
LDEM 20% (+4)
BREXIT 17% (+1)
SNP/PC 4% (+1)
GREENS - 4%

Just wait until polling after 31 October.


Yatesman
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In Reply To
Another view of yesterdayís pro-Brexit yobs.

They behave remarkably like the yobs who follow the England football team around the world.

https://twitter.com/...421368002895877?s=21

Please explain exactly how half a dozen pushers and shovers ( who may have been police agent provocateurs....hmmm!) have any relevance to the result to
leave the EU as proscribed by the 2016 referendum....


Looking forward to this answer...LOL!


007Dale
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In Reply To
The Boris Bounce appears to be of the dead cat Variety.
New ComRes Poll - 4-6 September 2019

LAB- 28% (+1)
CON 26% (-5)
LDEM 20% (+4)
BREXIT 17% (+1)
SNP/PC 4% (+1)
GREENS - 4%

Just wait until polling after 31 October.


Interesting you pick that one. How about YouGov (5-6 Sept);
Conservative 35%
Labour 21%
Lib Dem 19%
Brexit 15%
Green 4%
SNP 4%

I could pick another half a dozen polls all with different numbers.

The only ones that count are those on election day, but they donít ever support the Remain case!


Yatesman
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Another view of yesterdayís pro-Brexit yobs.

They behave remarkably like the yobs who follow the England football team around the world.

https://twitter.com/...421368002895877?s=21

Please explain exactly how half a dozen pushers and shovers ( who may have been police agent provocateurs....hmmm!) have any relevance to the result to
leave the EU as proscribed by the 2016 referendum....


Looking forward to this answer...LOL!


Actually meant prescribed, not proscribed but point remains that the actions of half a dozen numpties in 2019 is irrelevant to the result of the referendum of 2016......unless someone can explain otherwise !


coops
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In Reply To

Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh


Unelected bureaucrats like Dominic Cummings who is basically running the government at the moment?


Tykeoldboy
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In Reply To

In Reply To

Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh


Unelected bureaucrats like Dominic Cummings who is basically running the government at the moment?


The business of running the country continues whether or not there is a government and that job is the responsibility of Mark Sedwill who is the head of the Civil Service, but not a politician.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Part-Timer
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh


Unelected bureaucrats like Dominic Cummings who is basically running the government at the moment?


The business of running the country continues whether or not there is a government and that job is the responsibility of Mark Sedwill who is the head of the Civil Service, but not a politician.

It's parliament that has been prorogued not government. Ministers will still be working as hard as ever in their departments.


jon b
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In Reply To
Ministers will still be working as hard as ever in their departments.


In theory, it's great for Ministers to be hard at work in their Departments.

Unfortunately, if you're talking of the Chris Graylings of this world, you'd rather they lazed around chilling and doing nothing rather than busily spreading disaster with all they touch. Frown

.


jon b
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Yes but at least we will be free, able to take control of our borders, Make our own laws and get rid of all those unelected bureaucrats LaughLaugh


Unelected bureaucrats like Dominic Cummings who is basically running the government at the moment?


The business of running the country continues whether or not there is a government and that job is the responsibility of Mark Sedwill who is the head of the Civil Service, but not a politician.


I suppose the argument is that Dominic Cummings is some sort of supercharged Alastair Campbell/Malcolm Tucker hatchet man pulling Boris' strings and running the show. Personally, I'm not convinced that is actually the case. Any Minister with a bit of backbone and self respect can take the Jo Johnson/Amber Rudd option and walk out if they disagree with the way the ship is being steered, irrespective of who's doing the steering.

I'm also not convinced that Cummings is a tactical and strategic genius.

For instance, I don't understand what they expected to gain from the decision to prorogue.

The opponents of No Deal are deeply split between Remainers and those MPs willing to Brexit but not without a Deal. This split has been one reason why the Commons has found it so difficult to find a majority for any course of action. I would have expected an unprorogued Commons to have remained the ineffective talking shop that it has been for months and months.

However, the decision to prorogue has managed the difficult feat of uniting the various anti No Deal factions and resulted in the run of defeats Boris has suffered.

Proroguing Parliament looks like a Baldrick cunning plan that in reality is both a conspiracy and a cock-up.

.


007Dale
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For instance, I don't understand what they expected to gain from the decision to prorogue.

The opponents of No Deal are deeply split between Remainers and those MPs willing to Brexit but not without a Deal. This split has been one reason why the Commons has found it so difficult to find a majority for any course of action. I would have expected an unprorogued Commons to have remained the ineffective talking shop that it has been for months and months.

However, the decision to prorogue has managed the difficult feat of uniting the various anti No Deal factions and resulted in the run of defeats Boris has suffered.

Proroguing Parliament looks like a Baldrick cunning plan that in reality is both a conspiracy and a cock-up.

.


Agree. It was perfectly possible to predict the fallout by also leaving the Remainers time to do exactly what they did last week.

Had he suggested a General Election first off, he wouldnít have píeed off 20-odd members of his parliamentary party and given the momentum to Remain.

However, if he can cling on until the eventual General Election I feel certain heíll win a majority.


leohoenig
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https://bylinetimes.com/...nsons-leave-backers/



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



northstandexile
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Does it really matter if you tell porkies to the Queen?


Tykeoldboy
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Does it really matter if you tell porkies to the Queen?


I'm not sure if the reigning UK monarch is still allowed to have someone taken to the gallows to be hung drawn and quartered just because they have been insulted or lied to.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.

(This post was edited by Tykeoldboy on Sep 12, 2019, 6:06 PM)


Mr. T
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...


Sale Holmfield
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...

Probably because, naive as we are, most people expect a government to act within the law, so it is much more worthy of note when one has not.


PaulC
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...


It had plenty of publicity. Perhaps you werenít paying attention.

However, Gina Millerís case was not that Johnson had lied but that prorogation was an abuse of power, The Scottish court concluded that Johnson had not told the queen his true reason for prorogation. Quite different. He isnít being accused, by the way. The Scottish Court of Session has concluded he DID lie.

As an aside, its interesting reading the English reaction to the Scottish court case. Most people seem to think that English law is UK law and the Scottish judgment is a bit of a side show.

Lots of people are saying that because the English court found against the appellants the Supreme Court will do the same. They even think itís an English court.

The truth is, Scots Law and English Law are equals. The UK Supreme Court, with Scottish and English judges on it must consider the Scottish verdict in line with Scots law.

What the English court decided is an irrelevance.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 12, 2019, 7:02 PM)


Mr. T
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It got far less publicity and generated far less comment from certain quarters because the judgement did not go against the government. It is as simple as that.

And I know perfectly well that the cases were not about 'lying'. These accusations came from politicians and the media.


Mr. T
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...

Probably because, naive as we are, most people expect a government to act within the law, so it is much more worthy of note when one has not.

But what law? There is no statute, only precedent. The English court's judgement was that it is not the courts' business to judge.


Ronsdog
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Perhaps not as clear cut as reported......

https://fullfact.org/...omy/short-positions/

.......and wasn't it the bankroller of the remain campaign , one George Soros, that made over £100m from betting against the £ during the ERM fiasco?

We all enjoy a punt so what was your point Leo?


007Dale
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The Supreme Court will find in the Governments favour; and this week will prove to be something of an unnecessary side show.

Itís at least given the Remoaners something to crow on about, given they never get to celebrate actual election victories.


Yatesman
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...


It had plenty of publicity. Perhaps you werenít paying attention.

However, Gina Millerís case was not that Johnson had lied but that prorogation was an abuse of power, The Scottish court concluded that Johnson had not told the queen his true reason for prorogation. Quite different. He isnít being accused, by the way. The Scottish Court of Session has concluded he DID lie.

As an aside, its interesting reading the English reaction to the Scottish court case. Most people seem to think that English law is UK law and the Scottish judgment is a bit of a side show.

Lots of people are saying that because the English court found against the appellants the Supreme Court will do the same. They even think itís an English court.

The truth is, Scots Law and English Law are equals. The UK Supreme Court, with Scottish and English judges on it must consider the Scottish verdict in line with Scots law.

What the English court decided is an irrelevance.


I haven't had time to get fully up to speed but I understand that the Scottish Judges were obliged to draw this conclusion because the UK Gov't didn't offer any evidence to the contrary or alternative explanatuion to the charge of lying laid before them.

Because they are Judges and NOT investigators, if there was NO evidence presented by the defence to the contrary they are obliged to judge that as the charges are uncontested the only conclusion they can draw is that they must be true.

It's not the same as them being factually true, just evidentially true.

It's why there will be an appeal, the Gov't will present it's side and the case will fail in the Supreme Court due to the impossibility of proving the lie.

This is how I understand it with what I've read.


Mr. T
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Multiply the Soros windfall by 10...


PaulC
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...


It had plenty of publicity. Perhaps you werenít paying attention.

However, Gina Millerís case was not that Johnson had lied but that prorogation was an abuse of power, The Scottish court concluded that Johnson had not told the queen his true reason for prorogation. Quite different. He isnít being accused, by the way. The Scottish Court of Session has concluded he DID lie.

As an aside, its interesting reading the English reaction to the Scottish court case. Most people seem to think that English law is UK law and the Scottish judgment is a bit of a side show.

Lots of people are saying that because the English court found against the appellants the Supreme Court will do the same. They even think itís an English court.

The truth is, Scots Law and English Law are equals. The UK Supreme Court, with Scottish and English judges on it must consider the Scottish verdict in line with Scots law.

What the English court decided is an irrelevance.


I haven't had time to get fully up to speed but I understand that the Scottish Judges were obliged to draw this conclusion because the UK Gov't didn't offer any evidence to the contrary or alternative explanatuion to the charge of lying laid before them.

Because they are Judges and NOT investigators, if there was NO evidence presented by the defence to the contrary they are obliged to judge that as the charges are uncontested the only conclusion they can draw is that they must be true.

It's not the same as them being factually true, just evidentially true.

It's why there will be an appeal, the Gov't will present it's side and the case will fail in the Supreme Court due to the impossibility of proving the lie.

This is how I understand it with what I've read.


Iím afraid you cannot present new evidence at the Supreme Court.

The role of the Supreme Court is to examine the verdict based on the evidence at the time of the case. It is not a retrial. Johnson has had hisbopportunity to present his evidence.

Johnson was requested by the court to submit a sworn affadavit explaining his actions. He failed to do so. No civil servant was willing to swear to anything either.

It seems to me clear that the Court of Session was right to deduce from this that Johnson and his civil servants were unwilling to perjure themselves and that consequently he did lie about his motives.


Ronsdog
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Multiply the Soros windfall by 10...


Thanks for pointing out my error.

I think the point is well and truly madeWink


Yatesman
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Nobody accused Johnson of lying last week when an English court found in his favour. I wonder why that judgement has had rather less publicity...


It had plenty of publicity. Perhaps you werenít paying attention.

However, Gina Millerís case was not that Johnson had lied but that prorogation was an abuse of power, The Scottish court concluded that Johnson had not told the queen his true reason for prorogation. Quite different. He isnít being accused, by the way. The Scottish Court of Session has concluded he DID lie.

As an aside, its interesting reading the English reaction to the Scottish court case. Most people seem to think that English law is UK law and the Scottish judgment is a bit of a side show.

Lots of people are saying that because the English court found against the appellants the Supreme Court will do the same. They even think itís an English court.

The truth is, Scots Law and English Law are equals. The UK Supreme Court, with Scottish and English judges on it must consider the Scottish verdict in line with Scots law.

What the English court decided is an irrelevance.


I haven't had time to get fully up to speed but I understand that the Scottish Judges were obliged to draw this conclusion because the UK Gov't didn't offer any evidence to the contrary or alternative explanatuion to the charge of lying laid before them.

Because they are Judges and NOT investigators, if there was NO evidence presented by the defence to the contrary they are obliged to judge that as the charges are uncontested the only conclusion they can draw is that they must be true.

It's not the same as them being factually true, just evidentially true.

It's why there will be an appeal, the Gov't will present it's side and the case will fail in the Supreme Court due to the impossibility of proving the lie.

This is how I understand it with what I've read.


Iím afraid you cannot present new evidence at the Supreme Court.

The role of the Supreme Court is to examine the verdict based on the evidence at the time of the case. It is not a retrial. Johnson has had hisbopportunity to present his evidence.

Johnson was requested by the court to submit a sworn affadavit explaining his actions. He failed to do so. No civil servant was willing to swear to anything either.

It seems to me clear that the Court of Session was right to deduce from this that Johnson and his civil servants were unwilling to perjure themselves and that consequently he did lie about his motives.


The Supreme Court is essentially an appeal court and as such new evidence can be presented if presented for the Judges' consideration at the start of proceedings.
It has to meet certain criteria and generally ( though NOT exclusively) has to be something that could not have been presented at the original trial.
In a case of this importance it is my contention that the judges would be sympathetic to new evidence being presented.

It was a big mistake of Johnson's not to properly engage with the Scottish trial.

In general, I think Judges have to be careful not to be political and to not get involved in matters that are better dealt with at the ballot box.


TroubleAtMill
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This man in the question time audience sums it up perfectly https://mobile.twitter.com/.../1172274896711442434


Part-Timer
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Appealing to the courts in this instance seems a little desperate to me. The convention is that the Prime Minister advises the monarch when to prorogue Parliament. There is no law that the PM has to make a reasonable case when doing so. The monarch is just a rubber stamp. The monarch may ask why and may even counsel against it but that is as far as it should go. There should be no veto and so whether the PM has given honest reasons is neither here nor there. Much as I deplore this prorogation it is right that the decision is made by an elected PM (and, yes, there are issues around that in Boris Johnson's case but he holds that position as a result of a recognised process with plenty of precedents) and not an individual in an inherited role.


PaulC
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A rare intelligent analysis of the Court of Sessions judgment by our media.

https://threadreaderapp.com/...252249667592193.html


Yatesman
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A rare intelligent analysis of the Court of Sessions judgment by our media.

https://threadreaderapp.com/...252249667592193.html


The undeniable conclusion is that the court simply wishes to continue the tradition of 'rebel Scots' more than anything else.
It basically says the prorogation is legal but thinks it might be able to claim illegality on the basis of what might have been hidden in the PM's mind, even though that is beyond its remit!
It knows the Supreme Court will dismiss it biit the Scottish Court can at least retain a sense of solidarity with its fellow Nationals with its anti-Westminster ruling.


PaulC
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LOL!


northstandexile
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I think one of the big issues is that in a normal conference recess, the parliament has a possible of cancelling the recess to discuss important matters if the parliament agrees. Whereas in this situation parliament has no say in recalling parliament .

That is why a five week closure is not right.


007Dale
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Quite honestly the only point of recalling Parliament early is to vote for a general election.

The MPís have got themselves into a position where they will vote for anything to defeat the Government, but simply refuse to bring the Government down.

In this situation we can have another five weeks of bluster, random and pointless votes and still be no better off.

Simply nothing of value is going to be done in Parliament now, until Boris comes back from the EU summit. Then weíll know if heís got a deal (that will be voted down by Parliament) or no deal.


PaulC
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Quite honestly the only point of recalling Parliament early is to vote for a general election.

The MPís have got themselves into a position where they will vote for anything to defeat the Government, but simply refuse to bring the Government down.


What they have refused to do is call a GE on Johnsonís terms.

The GE will happen after 31 Oct on their terms when, hopefully, there has been no deal and Art. 50 will have to berevoked or an extension sought.

The Tories will be toast.


jon b
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In Reply To
A rare intelligent analysis of the Court of Sessions judgment by our media.

https://threadreaderapp.com/...252249667592193.html


The undeniable conclusion is that the court simply wishes to continue the tradition of 'rebel Scots' more than anything else.
It basically says the prorogation is legal but thinks it might be able to claim illegality on the basis of what might have been hidden in the PM's mind, even though that is beyond its remit!
It knows the Supreme Court will dismiss it biit the Scottish Court can at least retain a sense of solidarity with its fellow Nationals with its anti-Westminster ruling.


I think it's rather more a case of the English Courts seemingly unwilling to look at the reasons for prorogation whilst the Scots Courts consider that the reasons are relevant in order to prevent arbitrary abuse of power by the executive.

I'd expect the Supreme Court to be as reluctant as the English lower court in getting involved in the politics of the prorogation and therefore rule that the prorogation was lawful. But given the mess of recent years, I don't think our unwritten constitution is any longer the envy of anywhere else in the world.

Watching the TV coverage of the case in the Supreme Court this morning I was quite impressed by the discussions.

This afternoon I tried to watch a bit more and found that BBC2, BBC News Channel and BBC Parliament Channel were all covering Jo Swinson's speech from the Bournemouth Conference. Even though I'm a Lib Dem I don't find her speeches thrilling, so three channel coverage was a bit over the top!

.


Yatesman
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
A rare intelligent analysis of the Court of Sessions judgment by our media.

https://threadreaderapp.com/...252249667592193.html


The undeniable conclusion is that the court simply wishes to continue the tradition of 'rebel Scots' more than anything else.
It basically says the prorogation is legal but thinks it might be able to claim illegality on the basis of what might have been hidden in the PM's mind, even though that is beyond its remit!
It knows the Supreme Court will dismiss it biit the Scottish Court can at least retain a sense of solidarity with its fellow Nationals with its anti-Westminster ruling.


I think it's rather more a case of the English Courts seemingly unwilling to look at the reasons for prorogation whilst the Scots Courts consider that the reasons are relevant in order to prevent arbitrary abuse of power by the executive.

I'd expect the Supreme Court to be as reluctant as the English lower court in getting involved in the politics of the prorogation and therefore rule that the prorogation was lawful. But given the mess of recent years, I don't think our unwritten constitution is any longer the envy of anywhere else in the world.

Watching the TV coverage of the case in the Supreme Court this morning I was quite impressed by the discussions.

This afternoon I tried to watch a bit more and found that BBC2, BBC News Channel and BBC Parliament Channel were all covering Jo Swinson's speech from the Bournemouth Conference. Even though I'm a Lib Dem I don't find her speeches thrilling, so three channel coverage was a bit over the top!

.



Well, politics is politics and Law is Law,

The Law need not rule on politics and as prorogation is a normal and legal action any reason for proroguing Parliament would be political therefore outside the concerns of the court, I would think.

I accept the Scottish Courts have a slightly different take on these issues.

Let's not forget the PM hasn't even done his Queen's Speech yet, which
every new PM has to do.

Parliament had 3 years to discuss Brexit. It's not going to hurt it to have a few weeks off.
It's given Swinson a chance to position herself fully against Labour and now there is really nowhere for Labour Remainers to go than over to the Lib Dems.

Next PM? a tad optimistic methinks but possibly 2nd largest share of the vote after Boris.


PaulC
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Next PM? a tad optimistic methinks but possibly 2nd largest share of the vote after Boris.


The chsnces of Johnson being PM at the next GE are pretty slim.


Yatesman
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Watching a bit of the Gov't appeal proceedings at the Supreme Court.

A bit tedious listening to the usual Exclusivist tropes from the SNP's lawyer whilst he attempts to lecture the court on its role and pleading for special treatment for the Scottish case.............embarrassing!!


jon b
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I reckon that Johnson & Cummings decided to follow the David Davis game plan and aimed to run down the clock on the negotiations in the belief that they would pressure the EU to offer concessions as the 31 October 2019 deadline approached. Part of the plan appears to be avoiding detailing the UK's revised Ireland/UK border proposals until well into October.

Davis always said that a Deal would be struck at the eleventh hour because the EU would hold out to that point.

However, it's not just Johnson and the UK that can set deadlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/...border-checks-brexit

.


Ronsdog
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I reckon that Johnson & Cummings decided to follow the David Davis game plan and aimed to run down the clock on the negotiations in the belief that they would pressure the EU to offer concessions as the 31 October 2019 deadline approached. Part of the plan appears to be avoiding detailing the UK's revised Ireland/UK border proposals until well into October.

Davis always said that a Deal would be struck at the eleventh hour because the EU would hold out to that point.

However, it's not just Johnson and the UK that can set deadlines.

https://www.theguardian.com/...border-checks-brexit

.


Encouraging noises coming out of Brussels regarding the lodging of 'non-papers' by the British negotiating team.

Probably including theses proposals https://www.prosperity-uk.com/aacabout/
First posted 23/08 , page 167 previous thread.

It has also been pointed out in no uncertain terms that 40% of Irish exports go through Dover!
The pressure is on Varadker now and he could still find himself squeezed by both negotiating parties.


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Sep 20, 2019, 12:56 AM)


Ronsdog
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https://news.sky.com/...ill-happen-11814207#

With the spectre of a No Deal looming it appears that the EU have finally softened their negotiating stance.

Just goes to show what a Leaver PM can achieve......Cool


Yatesman
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https://news.sky.com/...ill-happen-11814207#

With the spectre of a No Deal looming it appears that the EU have finally softened their negotiating stance.

Just goes to show what a Leaver PM can achieve......Cool


Imagine how much better it would have been had we had had a Leaver PM and a positive, co-operative EU right from the start.

Imagine how much easier it could have been had the Remoaners accepted their responsibilities as defined within the Democratic Contract.

Imagine all the people, Living life in Peace.

What a dreamer I am !


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https://news.sky.com/...ill-happen-11814207#

With the spectre of a No Deal looming it appears that the EU have finally softened their negotiating stance.

Just goes to show what a Leaver PM can achieve......Cool


Of course, weíll still end up with no-deal because Corbyn will vote against any deal the Tories negotiate, but at least the country can blame Labour for that.

That should just about wipe out the last remaining Labour votes at the General Election.


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If there is a genuine report from the government stating what benefits there are to Brexit i'd like to see it.! We'd all like to see it.!

The fact is reports showing benefits of Brexit do not exist. The only ones that do are damning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowhammer

Gove tried to lie about how this is 'worst case planning' But it isn't, because he has another set of documents for that. And detailed within are the likely scenario in the aftermath of our own bad choices. This does't even cover the long term impact which arch brexiteer Jacob Reese-Mogg stated would take generations to recover from. IF you truly beleive there is evidence that this will go well, find it and post it here. (Even Farage doesn't predict a good outcome. All he ever says is "opportunity" "Get away from" He can never say where, or when, or how much, because there is no scenario where there is a positive)



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


Towlawtom
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EU rejects Boris Johnson request for Brexit deal without Irish backstop

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-irish-backstop-border-boris-johnson-eu-barnier-stephen-barclay-a9113451.html



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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In Reply To
https://news.sky.com/...ill-happen-11814207#

With the spectre of a No Deal looming it appears that the EU have finally softened their negotiating stance.

Just goes to show what a Leaver PM can achieve......Cool


Of course, weíll still end up with no-deal because Corbyn will vote against any deal the Tories negotiate, but at least the country can blame Labour for that.

That should just about wipe out the last remaining Labour votes at the General Election.


Corbyn doesn't have a majority in the Commons.


007Dale
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If anyone was left in doubt before the Labour Party Conference, they surely arenít now; The Labour Party arenít fit to govern themselves, never mind the country.

All momentum (pun intended) lost, all messages drowned out by the attempt to sack Tom Watson.

Some credit to Corbyn, who had recognised the devastating impact of removing a democratically elected deputy, but too late to make the Conference about anything other than internal disputes.

What this country needs is a viable, strong opposition.

What we have is Momentum-led Labour Party.


PaulC
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If anyone was left in doubt before the Labour Party Conference, they surely arenít now; The Labour Party arenít fit to govern themselves, never mind the country.

All momentum (pun intended) lost, all messages drowned out by the attempt to sack Tom Watson.

Some credit to Corbyn, who had recognised the devastating impact of removing a democratically elected deputy, but too late to make the Conference about anything other than internal disputes.

What this country needs is a viable, strong opposition.

What we have is Momentum-led Labour Party.


Meanwhile 23 of the most respected Tory MPs walk out on Boris Johnson/Dominic Cummings' extremist Tory party.


jon b
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https://news.sky.com/...ill-happen-11814207#

With the spectre of a No Deal looming it appears that the EU have finally softened their negotiating stance.

Just goes to show what a Leaver PM can achieve......Cool


Both the EU and the UK desperately want a deal and to move on to the next stage of the negotiations.

They might try to tweak May's deal and pretend significant movement had taken place but maybe the crucial concession would take place in Belfast.

https://www.theguardian.com/...it-deal-brussels-dup

And if Johnson does achieve a Deal by 31 October the upcoming General Election could be extremely painful for the opposition parties.

As Simon Jenkins puts it:

"His one need is to deliver formal Brexit on target. It would leave both Labour and the Liberal Democrats, now pledged to various forms of remain, up the electoral creek without a paddle."

.


Part-Timer
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If there is a genuine report from the government stating what benefits there are to Brexit i'd like to see it.! We'd all like to see it.!

The fact is reports showing benefits of Brexit do not exist. The only ones that do are damning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowhammer

Gove tried to lie about how this is 'worst case planning' But it isn't, because he has another set of documents for that. And detailed within are the likely scenario in the aftermath of our own bad choices. This does't even cover the long term impact which arch brexiteer Jacob Reese-Mogg stated would take generations to recover from. IF you truly beleive there is evidence that this will go well, find it and post it here. (Even Farage doesn't predict a good outcome. All he ever says is "opportunity" "Get away from" He can never say where, or when, or how much, because there is no scenario where there is a positive)

Don't be such a pessimist. Ann Widdecombe has told us that Brexit won't be as bad as Word War Two. Surely that's enough encouragement for anyone to leave.


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The undeniable conclusion is that the court simply wishes to continue the tradition of 'rebel Scots' more than anything else.
It basically says the prorogation is legal but thinks it might be able to claim illegality on the basis of what might have been hidden in the PM's mind, even though that is beyond its remit!
It knows the Supreme Court will dismiss it biit the Scottish Court can at least retain a sense of solidarity with its fellow Nationals with its anti-Westminster ruling.


11-0

LOL!


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 24, 2019, 11:43 AM)


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"If you have any information on this pair, who cruelly deceived a 93-year-old lady, do please contact Westminster police station."




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Maybe Boris and his Brexit followers can get a retrial until they get the verdict they want!
I would be happy with that, say if in 3 years time more information and evidence came to light.



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Maybe Boris and his Brexit followers can get a retrial until they get the verdict they want!


Is there no European Court they can appeal to?


Yatesman
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Maybe Boris and his Brexit followers can get a retrial until they get the verdict they want!


Is there no European Court they can appeal to?


No because this is British Law.

Doesn't make a lot of difference re: Leaving the EU.

Boris can appeal .........to the electorate via an election, or he can prorogue parliament.....again!

Prorogation gets my vote!


Mr. T
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We have now entered very dangerous territory when unelected and unaccountable individuals override government decisions (and, therefore, the decisions of the people).

Lords Reed and Carnwarth sat today. They were two of three dissenting judges in the Miller case in 2017 (the third, Lord Hughes, has since retired). Then, Reed said it was not the business of the courts to interfere in the business of parliament. I wonder why he thinks differently now?


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We have now entered very dangerous territory when unelected and unaccountable individuals override government decisions (and, therefore, the decisions of the people).


LOL!!!!!!!!!

(you were joking, weren't you?)


Mr. T
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No.

Does your vocabulary extend beyond LOL?


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Not when I'm laughing out loud. And to be fair there are a lot of LOL moments from Brexiteers on this thread.

Your complaint about our judiciary being unelected is deliciously Trumpian.


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Why is it funny? It's deadly serious. Their being unelected doesn't matter until they interfere in the proceedings of Parliament. The English High Court knew its place. The Supreme Court apparently thinks itself better.


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So if the result had gone the other way i'd wager you wouldn't be so magnanimous about it,fists pumping at the TV screen,veins bulging out your eyes whilst contemplating what to type next[;)....so parliament returns to do what exactly????? (thinks for a nanosecond) so here's some highlights so we don't have to watch it'

1.The majority of the house will be doing their let's not agree to a deal routine.
2.Boris will waffle on without really saying anything.
3.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign.
4.Liblabtor will become the new 3rd main party (bye bye SNP).
5.Ian Blackford will ask a question that takes a hour to ask (and we all know which question that will be)
6.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign.
7.Boris will be doing his lets have a general election spiel.
8.Jo Swinson tells the house that the referendum didn't reallly happen and wonders what all the fuss is all about.
9.Boris then tells everybody that WE WILL LEAVE ON THE 31ST OF OCTOBER just in case nobody knew!
10.Jeremy will ask Boris to resign (it's the new labour brexit policy)
11.Boris then asks why Jeremy is such a scaredy cat and not wanting a general election.
12.Emily Thornberry swivels her eyes and Dawn Butler shakes her head till its explodes at the shocking and unwarranted question.

As Madonna once sang 'Strike a pose there's nothing to it
Prorogue'


(This post was edited by Blanc Mange on Sep 24, 2019, 3:46 PM)


PaulC
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Why is it funny? It's deadly serious. Their being unelected doesn't matter until they interfere in the proceedings of Parliament. The English High Court knew its place. The Supreme Court apparently thinks itself better.


Their only interference is to stand up for the rights of our democratically elected parliament against the whims of our unelected executive. When chancersl ike Johnson and Cummings conspire to ride roughshod over our parliament to prevent parliament from representing us, with no other reason than to stymie scrutiny and debate , we have a right to seek redress in the law.

Johnson and Cummings are not above the law.

Just consider some of the Supreme Court's judgement:

"Parliament can make laws which everyone must obey: this would be undermined if the executive could, through the use of the prerogative, prevent Parliament from exercising its power to make laws for as long as it pleased. "

"ďthe conduct of government by a Prime Minister and Cabinet collectively responsible and accountable to Parliament lies at the heart of Westminster democracyĒ. The power to prorogue is limited by the constitutional principles with which it would otherwise conflict."

"a decision to prorogue (or advise the monarch to prorogue) will be unlawful if the prorogation has the effect of frustrating or preventing, without reasonable justification, the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions as a legislature and as the body responsible for the supervision of the executive. "
"The Court is bound to conclude, therefore, that the decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of Parliament to carry out its constitutional functions without reasonable justification."


PaulC
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The whole laughable irony of all this, of course , is that until today Brexiteers, from Johnson down, were telling us prorogation was absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Now they have been rumbled by the highest court in the land and they bleat that declaring Johnson's con trick illegal is an attempt to stop Brexit.

LOL!

Thank goodness for those brave people in and out of parliament who have stood up to Johnson and Cummings.


Mr. T
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The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'.

Nevertheless, I agree with those who think Johnson was foolish to do this. He should have known the trouble it would bring. The word 'disingenuous' is used wrongly too often today but it was appropriately applied to Government arguments here just as it was to the hypocrites in the House who said they were respecting the referendum result but wanted to prevent 'no deal'. The argument that 'only 3-4 days business would be lost' is no more convincing than that of the Remain camp who said they needed the time to' hold the executive accountable'. There's been three years of 'holding the executive accountable' by trying to stop it enacting democratic decisions.


PaulC
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In Reply To
The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'. .


Your first sentence simply isn't true.

Our Parliament is sovereign. We elect MPs to represent us in that parliament.

We are a representative democracy, not a populist one.

We entrust our representatives to do what they believe is best for us. In most cases they do that, but not when it comes to Brexit. Most Tory MPs campaigned against leaving the Eu because of the untold damage it will inflict on the UK ... but many of those same Tory MPs now campaign for Brexit because they fear for their seats and are wiliing to abrogate their responsibilities as MPs to keep their seats. Thanks goodness for the (ex-)Tory MPs of principle like Grieve, Soubry, Allen, Boles.

No sane person can want a No Deal Brexit which is what we will get on 31 OCtober if Johnson, Cummings and the lunatic Tory right get their way. Thankfully there remains a sane majority in Parliament.


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"We are a representative democracy, not a populist one."

Yes, under normal circumstances. Nobody would suggest for a minute that Parliament act on any or every suggestion from the people or that it should ask us for an answer to any or every question it might think of. In this matter, however, it asked us a simple, unambiguous question and we gave the answer on the basis of trust: that it would enact "what the people decided".

It has gone back on that promise on the spurious grounds that a WTO exit will 'cause untold damage to the UK'. This is pure speculation. You can no more predict that it will than I can predict that it won't. The forecasts of apocalypse are embarrassing and although it is fair to say that there might be some difficulties, most of these should have been headed off with long-term planning and will pass anyway with time. Leaving must mean a change in border and customs arrangements. That's what Parliament should have been discussing, not scurrying around in dark places to come up with schemes to delay our leaving or reverse the vote with bogus pleas of conscience.

Parliamentary sovereignty is national sovereignty. Parliament is ours. It is not entitled to act against us. It draws its power and legitimacy from us, not from itself and its own sense of being. It is correct to say that it is there to hold to account an over-mighty executive. It is not entitled to usurp the executive's power, as it has done.


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In Reply To
The people are sovereign, not Parliament in the way that some think i.e. that it can dictate to the people, who voted explicitly to leave the EU in the referendum and implicitly in the 2017 general election. The Referendum Act and the Article 50 Act were passed by huge margins. The Repeal (Withdrawal) Act was passed by a comfortable margin (but not before parliament nobbled it) and yet Johnson is apparently 'riding roughshod' over parliament. That parliament has done everything it can to overthrow the 2016 result by subterfuge yet doesn't have the courage to call another GE. It has committed a coup against the people and the judges support it by calling it 'holding the executive accountable'. .


Your first sentence simply isn't true.

Our Parliament is sovereign. We elect MPs to represent us in that parliament.

We are a representative democracy, not a populist one.

We entrust our representatives to do what they believe is best for us. In most cases they do that, but not when it comes to Brexit. Most Tory MPs campaigned against leaving the Eu because of the untold damage it will inflict on the UK ... but many of those same Tory MPs now campaign for Brexit because they fear for their seats and are wiliing to abrogate their responsibilities as MPs to keep their seats. Thanks goodness for the (ex-)Tory MPs of principle like Grieve, Soubry, Allen, Boles.

No sane person can want a No Deal Brexit which is what we will get on 31 OCtober if Johnson, Cummings and the lunatic Tory right get their way. Thankfully there remains a sane majority in Parliament.


We have a populist Parliament that has prorogued Democracy.

Parliament can sit tomorrow and nothing changes..........We are leaving the EU and all this does is continue the uncertainty.

Anyone who claims this country can't cope with leaving the EU is lying through their teeth and deliberately and disingenuously so.

Election Now...........The People vs The Remainer Establishment/Elite


jon b
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Lords Reed and Carnwarth sat today. They were two of three dissenting judges in the Miller case in 2017 (the third, Lord Hughes, has since retired). Then, Reed said it was not the business of the courts to interfere in the business of parliament. I wonder why he thinks differently now?


I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case.

The judges seemed to focus on the failure of those lawyers to even attempt to justify the decision to prorogue. i.e.

"No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put before the court."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-49810680

.


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It has gone back on that promise on the spurious grounds that a WTO exit will 'cause untold damage to the UK'. This is pure speculation. You can no more predict that it will than I can predict that it won't.


I can point to the opinion of countless experts. What can you point to to suggest otherwise?

(Yes, I know Brexiteers don't like experts)


PaulC
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Election Now...........The People vs The Remainer Establishment/Elite


That's what Johnson is pleading for.

The election will be after 31 October, when the damage from a No Deal Brexit has been avoided and Johnson and the Tories are toast.


Mr. T
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Experts on what? The usual crowd who predicted financial meltdown would follow a 'No' vote?

It IS speculation, often based on absolute worst-case scenarios. These 'experts' would do better to offer their advice on measures to reduce risk in the immediate post-exit period.


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I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case.

The judges seemed to focus on the failure of those lawyers to even attempt to justify the decision to prorogue. i.e.

"No justification for taking action with such an extreme effect has been put before the court."

.


It's not the lawyers' fault.

The Scottish Court of Session invited Johnson and his officialst o outline their reasons for prorogation. Answer came there none.

That there was no "case for the defence" was patently obvious. It was a ploy to stymie parliament and no one was willing to perjure themselves by pretending otherwise - not even Johnson.


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"I think partly that may be because the Government lawyers made such a poor effort at putting the Government case."

Probably because the case was weak, as I said elsewhere. Nevertheless, this is dangerous territory for judges. In 2017, Reed stressed the need for Parliament to hold the executive to account (no one should be questioning this) but he warned the judiciary to tread carefully.


PaulC
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Experts on what? The usual crowd who predicted financial meltdown would follow a 'No' vote?


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/...the-impact-would-be/

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/...ion-Fact-sheet-1.pdf

https://www.nfuonline.com/...no-deal-and-the-wto/

https://www.bloomberg.com/...t-could-be-quicktake

But hey, just google "effects of WTO Brexit" and find out for yourself.

Sometimes I think Brexiteers live in a kind of LA-La-Land where the whole world is plotting against their vision of the sunny uplands of a No Deal Brexit, by presenting them with unfortunate facts.


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Probably because the case was weak, as I said elsewhere. Nevertheless, this is dangerous territory for judges. In 2017, Reed stressed the need for Parliament to hold the executive to account (no one should be questioning this) but he warned the judiciary to tread carefully.


Do you think our executive is above the law?


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So many forecasts are based on the idea that trade will continue for some considerable time in the future as it is behaving now i.e. that the nature of economy will not change, that people's buying habits will not change, that imports and exports will not vary etc. In other words, the calculations are based on a snapshot (as with HMG's annual budget). The real world's not like that. The economy will adjust.

Leavers understand there will be difficulties. They also know that they can be overcome but that that requires some positive will. Too many opposed to leaving seem to be wishing failure upon the nation.


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What law has been broken?


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What law has been broken?


The Supreme Court concluded unanimously that Johnsonís attempt to silence Parliament was ďunlawfulĒ.

Take it up with the Supreme Court if you think his actions were lawful.


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What law has been broken?



Did you read or more likely watch the judgement from the Supreme Court when it was read out?

It's about an abuse of power ie the decision to suspend Parliament for 5 weeks was unnecessary in the opinion of all 11 Justices and took away the ability of Parliament to scrutinise the Government, who incidentally are also not elected... we as voters have no say in who is in Government only who is in Parliament.

Those in Parliament should be able to ask questions of the Government as to what is going on at this most crucial of times. The Court are merely upholding that right and they outlined very clearly why they have the precedent to do so.


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Ah, you're on form today! Shockingly rude as ever.

No statute has been broken but the SC has entered political territory. It's an important distinction.


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Yes, I have read the judgement. I have also made the point here that no one would disagree with the basic premise that Parliament should scrutinise the actions of the government and that I thought Johnson acted unwisely.

Parliament has had enough time to force through the Benn Act and would have had more time for legislation prior to Oct 31 yet the judges decided prorogation (of, in reality, 3-4 lost days) denied Parliament the time to hold the Government to account. It is that that is a political argument and takes us into (almost) uncharted territory.

Unusual prorogations were used in 1930, 1948 and 1997 but the courts did not become involved then.


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Ah, you're on form today! Shockingly rude as ever.

No statute has been broken but the SC has entered political territory. It's an important distinction.


I havenít been rude at all.

The SC judged unanimously that Johnsonís ruse was unlawful. Like Johnson, you seem to disagree with them.


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Ah, you're on form today! Shockingly rude as ever.

No statute has been broken but the SC has entered political territory. It's an important distinction.



How was my reply rude?

Obviously there is no law stating that suspending Parliament for [insert time here] is against the law. That would be ridiculous.

As you have obviously read the decision the Justices came to the conclusion they reached was that the actions of the Government had the effect of disallowing Parliament from asking the very many questions that they want to put to Government Ministers about many issues including Brexit. If they deem that "unlawful" then it's pretty clear that is against the law.

Even Johnson won't dare to go down the line of argument you are taking up here so I would be careful if I were you. Probably The Sun will have more 'Enemies of the People' headlines tomorrow, enjoy your copy.


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Oh, come along now. Don't play the innocent!


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How was my reply rude?


That wasn't a reply to you. You appear to have muddled your quotations.

However, the rest of your answer isn't so friendly but perhaps you've rather misunderstood me. The courts have always tried to avoid getting involved in the proceedings of the House. That is an observation that anyone could make from either side of the EU argument. Now that the courts have done so, they have set a precedent. Can you say where I have suggested that the ruling should be defied, which is one possible interpretation of what you have written?


(This post was edited by Mr. T on Sep 24, 2019, 8:22 PM)


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How was my reply rude?


That wasn't a reply to you.

However, the rest of your answer isn't so friendly.

I do think you've rather misunderstood me. The courts have always tried to avoid getting involved in the proceedings of the House. That is an observation that anyone could make from either side of the EU argument. Now that the courts have done so, they have set a precedent. Can you say where I have suggested that the ruling should be defied, which is one possible interpretation of what you have written?


Yes I get that about your reply, no problem.

If you read the judgement then the Supreme Court do not consider the prorogation of Parliament to be a procedure of the House. It isn't voted on unlike a recess therefore they are not interfering with Parliament. We can to and fro about if that is right or not but all 11 Justices of the highest Court in the land determined it so.

I'll take their opinion over Johnsons to be honest whose history of being sacked over telling lies is legendary and goes way back as we all know.


northstandexile
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Post #183 of 419 (730 views)
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Yes, I have read the judgement. I have also made the point here that no one would disagree with the basic premise that Parliament should scrutinise the actions of the government and that I thought Johnson acted unwisely.

Parliament has had enough time to force through the Benn Act and would have had more time for legislation prior to Oct 31 yet the judges decided prorogation (of, in reality, 3-4 lost days) denied Parliament the time to hold the Government to account. It is that that is a political argument and takes us into (almost) uncharted territory.

Unusual prorogations were used in 1930, 1948 and 1997 but the courts did not become involved then.



One of the issues here is that Prorogation is only normally a week, which is usually fine but this one is five weeks and Parliament had no say on the length.

Conference season is decided by parliament and is a 'recess'. Parliament has the right if it wishes to cancel a recess, with prorogation parliament has no say.

This 'losing 4 or 5 days' is not the issue. Parliament can cancel a recess but not a prorogation so this prorogation was to stop parliament having their say and not just the queens speech.


Mr. T
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But it is a political interjection inasmuch as they talk of time required to consider matters in the house. In this, our opinions are as valid as theirs!

Anyway, there'll be dozens of articles in the press over the next few days for everyone to study, either to confirm their bias or expand their knowledge.

Happy reading, everyone!


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This 'losing 4 or 5 days' is not the issue.

I made the point in #160 that' only 3-4 days business lost' is not a particularly convincing argument.


Yatesman
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In Reply To
Ah, you're on form today! Shockingly rude as ever.

No statute has been broken but the SC has entered political territory. It's an important distinction.



How was my reply rude?

Obviously there is no law stating that suspending Parliament for [insert time here] is against the law. That would be ridiculous.

As you have obviously read the decision the Justices came to the conclusion they reached was that the actions of the Government had the effect of disallowing Parliament from asking the very many questions that they want to put to Government Ministers about many issues including Brexit. If they deem that "unlawful" then it's pretty clear that is against the law.

Even Johnson won't dare to go down the line of argument you are taking up here so I would be careful if I were you. Probably The Sun will have more 'Enemies of the People' headlines tomorrow, enjoy your copy.



The Court said the prorogation was unlawful in the sense that it was misused. In that I agree.
There is no doubt that Johnson used prorogation for other ends than the Queen's Speech.
Could he have known that it was going to be deemed 'unlawful' rather than 'political'....Not really. How could he have? There was no precedent and, as you point out , no specific statute to disobey.

Nowhere in their ruling is there any suggestion that Boris Johnson lied to the Queen, before any one starts spouting that nonsense.

I think Johnson was right to attempt prorogation and I support his attempt at prorogation , even if the courts disagree.

Johnson's fight against the powerful, influential and all pervasive EU/Remainer elite will win him plenty of votes in the GE.

I predict a vote of No Confidence in parliament (maybe from a Tory MP ) leading to a GE and an overwhelming Tory victory.


PaulC
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I predict a vote of No Confidence in parliament (maybe from a Tory MP ) leading to a GE and an overwhelming Tory victory.


Your predictive skills haven't been too great so far.

Why on earth would Labour go along with a NC motion? A GE plays into Johnson's hands. It's what he's been begging for. It's the only way he and the Tories can escape humiliation. Opposition tactics should be to do nothing until 31 October. Just let Johnson and the Tories stew, let them humiliate themselves by extending A50 and and they will be toast at the next election.


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In Reply To
A

No statute has been broken but the SC has entered political territory.


2016 We don't want foreign courts interfering in our affairs

2019 We don't want UK courts interfering in our affairs.


steve walker
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But it is a political interjection inasmuch as they talk of time required to consider matters in the house. In this, our opinions are as valid as theirs!

Anyway, there'll be dozens of articles in the press over the next few days for everyone to study, either to confirm their bias or expand their knowledge.

Happy reading, everyone!



well, they do say there those so blind that they refuse to see. As we are so close to the Brexit deadline I want to see Parliament asking questions of Ministers. Johnson says he is getting a deal with the EU, I want to see him being questioned about this. It affects me. I want to know what is happening, why wouldn't I?

As the clock ticks down I worry that my wife who is an EU National will suddenly have her status changed. This is not just an ideological thing it really affects real people.

You can talk all you like about Brexit and Johnson and whatever and argue amongst yourselves about semantics and try to get one over the previous poster. The fact is that this affects real people and I'm not sure any of you when you are trying to make your clever posts to get one over whoever disagrees with you really realises how this situation actually affects people.

It's just an ideological argument for most of you. It's a practical argument for some. That's me bowing out of this thread for now and you can continue to argue your ideals with no consequences if you want to.


Mr. T
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As the clock ticks down I worry that my wife who is an EU National will suddenly have her status changed. This is not just an ideological thing it really affects real people.

I shall politely demur at the suggestion that a debate about the base of power and law in the UK is merely semantic and ideological clever-dickery. See post #162 Ė my reference is to trade and borders but can be applied to all matters affected.


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In Reply To
I predict a vote of No Confidence in parliament (maybe from a Tory MP ) leading to a GE and an overwhelming Tory victory.


Your predictive skills haven't been too great so far.

Why on earth would Labour go along with a NC motion? A GE plays into Johnson's hands. It's what he's been begging for. It's the only way he and the Tories can escape humiliation. Opposition tactics should be to do nothing until 31 October. Just let Johnson and the Tories stew, let them humiliate themselves by extending A50 and and they will be toast at the next election.


I predicted prorogation months ago.....Got that right!

I predicted our Parliamentarians would do the decent and honest thing and respect the will of the people as expressed through the legal and binding EU referendum of three years ago..........I got that wrong!


northstandexile
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In Reply To
As the clock ticks down I worry that my wife who is an EU National will suddenly have her status changed. This is not just an ideological thing it really affects real people.

I shall politely demur at the suggestion that a debate about the base of power and law in the UK is merely semantic and ideological clever-dickery. See post #162 Ė my reference is to trade and borders but can be applied to all matters affected.

Leaving must mean a change in border and customs arrangements.
In post 162 you say the above. What changes do you want to see between NI and ROI


PaulC
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I predict a vote of No Confidence in parliament (maybe from a Tory MP ) leading to a GE and an overwhelming Tory victory.


Your predictive skills haven't been too great so far.

Why on earth would Labour go along with a NC motion? A GE plays into Johnson's hands. It's what he's been begging for. It's the only way he and the Tories can escape humiliation. Opposition tactics should be to do nothing until 31 October. Just let Johnson and the Tories stew, let them humiliate themselves by extending A50 and and they will be toast at the next election.


I predicted prorogation months ago.....Got that right!

I predicted our Parliamentarians would do the decent and honest thing and respect the will of the people as expressed through the legal and binding EU referendum of three years ago..........I got that wrong!


Prorogation never happened, You got it wrong,


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Leaving must mean a change in border and customs arrangements.
In post 162 you say the above. What changes do you want to see between NI and ROI?

As few as possible. Whatever happens should be decided between the UK and the ROI. Some intelligent input from the HoC would have been good (that was the point I was making in that message) but it hasn't been forthcoming. Doom-mongering prevailed.


Yatesman
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In Reply To
But it is a political interjection inasmuch as they talk of time required to consider matters in the house. In this, our opinions are as valid as theirs!

Anyway, there'll be dozens of articles in the press over the next few days for everyone to study, either to confirm their bias or expand their knowledge.

Happy reading, everyone!



well, they do say there those so blind that they refuse to see. As we are so close to the Brexit deadline I want to see Parliament asking questions of Ministers. Johnson says he is getting a deal with the EU, I want to see him being questioned about this. It affects me. I want to know what is happening, why wouldn't I?

As the clock ticks down I worry that my wife who is an EU National will suddenly have her status changed. This is not just an ideological thing it really affects real people.

You can talk all you like about Brexit and Johnson and whatever and argue amongst yourselves about semantics and try to get one over the previous poster. The fact is that this affects real people and I'm not sure any of you when you are trying to make your clever posts to get one over whoever disagrees with you really realises how this situation actually affects people.

It's just an ideological argument for most of you. It's a practical argument for some. That's me bowing out of this thread for now and you can continue to argue your ideals with no consequences if you want to.


Yes Brexit affects real people but your partner's problem of status is easily solvable via the application for settled status process.........But you know that.

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


PaulC
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But ROI is in the EU, NI wonít be.

If we leave without a deal, how do you avoid a border?

Remember, if Johnson gets his way, and you support no deal Brexit, this will be happening in 5 weeks time.


Yatesman
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
I predict a vote of No Confidence in parliament (maybe from a Tory MP ) leading to a GE and an overwhelming Tory victory.


Your predictive skills haven't been too great so far.

Why on earth would Labour go along with a NC motion? A GE plays into Johnson's hands. It's what he's been begging for. It's the only way he and the Tories can escape humiliation. Opposition tactics should be to do nothing until 31 October. Just let Johnson and the Tories stew, let them humiliate themselves by extending A50 and and they will be toast at the next election.


I predicted prorogation months ago.....Got that right!

I predicted our Parliamentarians would do the decent and honest thing and respect the will of the people as expressed through the legal and binding EU referendum of three years ago..........I got that wrong!


Prorogation never happened, You got it wrong,


Of course it never, that's why Parliament sat today and sat all last week, and the week before etc,

And the people didn't vote 52% -48% to leave the EU neither......

And..... Your Back In The Room!


PaulC
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Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way!


Yatesman
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But ROI is in the EU, NI wonít be.

If we leave without a deal, how do you avoid a border?

Remember, if Johnson gets his way, and you support no deal Brexit, this will be happening in 5 weeks time.


A hard border designed and built by Brussels ...... oh how well they've played this game!


Mr. T
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My hope is that intelligence prevails. All around the world, goods cross customs barriers without on-the-spot intervention. Most inspections and virtually all collections of tariffs occur 'behind the lines'. However, I suppose there will have to be some modest checks on people moving between Ireland and the UK.


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In Reply To

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way![/reply

Do you even live in the UK ?

Oh no, silly me, of course . Before the referendum there were a couple of thousand fascists in the UK.

The day after there were 17..4 million fascists in the UK........Just Like That!


Yatesman
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My hope is that intelligence prevails. All around the world, goods cross customs barriers without on-the-spot intervention. Most inspections and virtually all collections of tariffs occur 'behind the lines'. However, I suppose there will have to be some modest checks on people moving between Ireland and the UK.


I agree except for checks on people..........Not a single check on people whatsoever should be the UK position.

Not one check on one single person on the island of Ireland.......simples!


PaulC
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In Reply To
But ROI is in the EU, NI wonít be.

If we leave without a deal, how do you avoid a border?

Remember, if Johnson gets his way, and you support no deal Brexit, this will be happening in 5 weeks time.


A hard border designed and built by Brussels ...... oh how well they've played this game!


Designed by Brussels?

The UK will have chosen to leave the Common Market without a deal. The consequences will be 100% of our making.


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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way![/reply

Do you even live in the UK ?

Oh no, silly me, of course . Before the referendum there were a couple of thousand fascists in the UK.

The day after there were 17..4 million fascists in the UK........Just Like That!


Eh? Thatís not an answer to my question. In what way were 17.4 m adversely affected by being in the EU?


Yatesman
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Sep 24, 2019, 10:22 PM

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Post #205 of 419 (1294 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way![/reply

Do you even live in the UK ?

Oh no, silly me, of course . Before the referendum there were a couple of thousand fascists in the UK.

The day after there were 17..4 million fascists in the UK........Just Like That!


Eh? Thatís not an answer to my question. In what way were 17.4 m adversely affected by being in the EU?


Honestly, Paul C, you asked that question numerous times and been answered numerous times.......My question to you is..Given your dismissive, arrogant and superior attitude to Leave voters.....

Why are you even asking,...........?


Yatesman
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Sep 24, 2019, 10:26 PM

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Post #206 of 419 (1287 views)
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In Reply To
But ROI is in the EU, NI wonít be.

If we leave without a deal, how do you avoid a border?

Remember, if Johnson gets his way, and you support no deal Brexit, this will be happening in 5 weeks time.


A hard border designed and built by Brussels ...... oh how well they've played this game!




Designed by Brussels?

The UK will have chosen to leave the Common Market without a deal. The consequences will be 100% of our making.


The border is between two allegedly Sovereign nations.
We brokered the GFA with Eire and the two communities,

We could be talking with that other ' Sovereign' nation if Brussels would let them,lol!

Yes, Made In Brussels, y'know, Brussels.........The capital city of Ireland!!


PaulC
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Post #207 of 419 (1279 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way![/reply

Do you even live in the UK ?

Oh no, silly me, of course . Before the referendum there were a couple of thousand fascists in the UK.

The day after there were 17..4 million fascists in the UK........Just Like That!


Eh? Thatís not an answer to my question. In what way were 17.4 m adversely affected by being in the EU?


Honestly, Paul C, you asked that question numerous times and been answered numerous times.......My question to you is..Given your dismissive, arrogant and superior attitude to Leave voters.....

Why are you even asking,...........?


You still arenít answering. Why not?


PaulC
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Sep 24, 2019, 10:34 PM

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Post #208 of 419 (1271 views)
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The border is between two allegedly Sovereign nations.
We brokered the GFA with Eire and the two communities,

We could be talking with that other ' Sovereign' nation if Brussels would let them,lol!

Yes, Made In Brussels, y'know, Brussels.........The capital city of Ireland!!


Of its own volition, RoI has chosen to be part of the largest single market in the world.

Of its own volition, it adheres to the rules of the organisation it has joined.

It is typical Brexiteer cloud cuckoo land to think we can deal with one part of the European Union in a different way from the rest. It will not happen and never could.


Yatesman
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Sep 24, 2019, 10:52 PM

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Post #209 of 419 (1261 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

Conversely , EU membership adversely affected millions of real people too. That's why 17.4 million of them voted Brexit.


In what way![/reply

Do you even live in the UK ?

Oh no, silly me, of course . Before the referendum there were a couple of thousand fascists in the UK.

The day after there were 17..4 million fascists in the UK........Just Like That!


Eh? Thatís not an answer to my question. In what way were 17.4 m adversely affected by being in the EU?


Honestly, Paul C, you asked that question numerous times and been answered numerous times.......My question to you is..Given your dismissive, arrogant and superior attitude to Leave voters.....

Why are you even asking,...........?


You still arenít answering. Why not?


Because I've told you before.

You tell me why you think 17.4 million people voted Leave.

Try not to be snide, condescending, morally superior or patronising. Talk not of lies ( because there were mistruths and fear mongering on the Remain side) Talk not of the usual stereotypical tropes Remainers have trotted out to dehumanise and besmirch the winners in the referendum but let's have from you an honest and candid attempt to genuineluy 'understand' and verbalise why YOU think so many millions of yiour fellow UK citizens voted this way. Without the hate, the vitriol and without the enmity.

Go on........


PaulC
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Well, Iím always happy to answer questions, even if others arenít.

The principal stated reason was immigration.


Yatesman
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Well, Iím always happy to answer questions, even if others arenít.

The principal stated reason was immigration.



I'm glad you are happy to answer questions but your reply is not good enough.


What , in detail, were the problems with and effects of immigration that voters regarded as sufficiently negative to cause such a seismic change in British political expression.?

Also, Was that really the only issue that affected voters' decision to Leave or was there even more to it?

Tbh I wasn't wanting you to regurgitate the 'Official' stated reason beause there is no point in asking you if that's all you're going to do.

I'm interested in drilling down in to your honest , personal feeling on this matter.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Sep 25, 2019, 6:22 AM)


PaulC
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In Reply To
Well, Iím always happy to answer questions, even if others arenít.

The principal stated reason was immigration.



I'm glad you are happy to answer questions but your reply is not good enough.


What , in detail, were the problems with and effects of immigration that voters regarded as sufficiently negative to cause such a seismic change in British political expression.?

Also, Was that really the only issue that affected voters' decision to Leave or was there even more to it?

Tbh I wasn't wanting you to regurgitate the 'Official' stated reason beause there is no point in asking you if that's all you're going to do.

I'm interested in drilling down in to your honest , personal feeling on this matter.


It's peculiar that a Brexiteer wants to know from a Remainer the reasons why Brexiteers did as they did. Especially since the Remainer was the one asking the question.

I didn't give you the "Official" principal reason, whatever that might mean - but the one arising from academic research into to the thought processes of Brexiteers. But yes I'm sure there were others - "fancying a change", "wanting to give Cameron a bloody nose, "wanting more powerful vacuum cleaners" are all there too.

Over to you.


northstandexile
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Sep 25, 2019, 8:01 AM

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Post #213 of 419 (1168 views)
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In Reply To
Well, Iím always happy to answer questions, even if others arenít.

The principal stated reason was immigration.



I'm glad you are happy to answer questions but your reply is not good enough.


What , in detail, were the problems with and effects of immigration that voters regarded as sufficiently negative to cause such a seismic change in British political expression.?

Also, Was that really the only issue that affected voters' decision to Leave or was there even more to it?

Tbh I wasn't wanting you to regurgitate the 'Official' stated reason beause there is no point in asking you if that's all you're going to do.

I'm interested in drilling down in to your honest , personal feeling on this matter.


As been said in a post higher up the reason vote leave had more votes than remain was apart from being brainwashed by the right wing press for 40 years was immigration.

I am a staunch remainer living in Mansfield, a 71% leave area with a run down ex-industrial economy but unbelievably since 2017 with a Tory MP.

Last week I was in the local sub post office on a ex council estate at the back of the queue which was nearly out the door. Nothing unusual you say, except everyone collecting their pension was complaining about the queue.

With one poor sod on the counter the reason for the hold up was a young Romanian lad with a poor knowledge of the English language trying to send money back to his widowed mother in Romania.

I would imagine every pensioner in that queue voted leave. Simple things like this had an effect as well as giving Cameron a bloody nose.


MelChester
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Why are the pensioners queueing for their pensions, surely many now have their pensions paid into a bank account. Thought there was a big push a few years ago to get away from big queues in the Post Office, car tax online was another queue buster.


Yatesman
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Sep 25, 2019, 10:18 AM

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Post #215 of 419 (1113 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Well, Iím always happy to answer questions, even if others arenít.

The principal stated reason was immigration.



I'm glad you are happy to answer questions but your reply is not good enough.


What , in detail, were the problems with and effects of immigration that voters regarded as sufficiently negative to cause such a seismic change in British political expression.?

Also, Was that really the only issue that affected voters' decision to Leave or was there even more to it?

Tbh I wasn't wanting you to regurgitate the 'Official' stated reason beause there is no point in asking you if that's all you're going to do.

I'm interested in drilling down in to your honest , personal feeling on this matter.


It's peculiar that a Brexiteer wants to know from a Remainer the reasons why Brexiteers did as they did. Especially since the Remainer was the one asking the question.

I didn't give you the "Official" principal reason, whatever that might mean - but the one arising from academic research into to the thought processes of Brexiteers. But yes I'm sure there were others - "fancying a change", "wanting to give Cameron a bloody nose, "wanting more powerful vacuum cleaners" are all there too.

Over to you.


Those are superficial reasons. You dont honestly believe the tropes about 'vacuum cleaners' and ' blue passports' , surely?
No, you don't.

The reason was far more innate, instinctual ,fundamental.

Try again you need to know your enemy.

I'm dropping hints and clues and signposts but still you are going in the wrong direction.
If you truly want to mend society, heal the fissure then think about working class society far away from the levers, privilege and machinations of power, think of family, of community, belonging ,emotional investment, roots!
Forget politics.
Politics isnt why people voted Leave.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Sep 25, 2019, 10:20 AM)


Part-Timer
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My hope is that intelligence prevails. All around the world, goods cross customs barriers without on-the-spot intervention. Most inspections and virtually all collections of tariffs occur 'behind the lines'. However, I suppose there will have to be some modest checks on people moving between Ireland and the UK.

Anyone who has experienced the border between Poland and Ukraine would question this. Prior to Poland's accession to the EU the border was free-flowing (actually porous would probably be a better word). After accession the EU built a hard border which causes significant delays to the transportation of goods every day.


Chris1963
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Post #217 of 419 (1060 views)
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In Reply To
Anyone who has experienced the border between Poland and Ukraine would question this. Prior to Poland's accession to the EU the border was free-flowing (actually porous would probably be a better word). After accession the EU built a hard border which causes significant delays to the transportation of goods every day.


That is interesting, I didn't know that. However, I suppose it goes some way towards explaining why they jointly hosted the Euro football finals several years ago. The two countries must have had a good relationship for some time before then.


northstandexile
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Sep 25, 2019, 6:58 PM

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Post #218 of 419 (921 views)
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Why are the pensioners queueing for their pensions, surely many now have their pensions paid into a bank account. Thought there was a big push a few years ago to get away from big queues in the Post Office, car tax online was another queue buster.


These pensioners go with their post office card, put it in the machine on the PO counter and withdraw all the cash in the account each week. I know it is unbelievable but many do around here.


007Dale
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Sep 26, 2019, 10:21 AM

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Post #219 of 419 (807 views)
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Out of interest, does anyone think it was worth recalling Parliament for that 12 hours of play-ground nonsense yesterday?

Both sides spitting poison at each other does little to resolve the crisis of the day or make the U.K. look particularly good.

So, all weíll get until Boris comes back from the EU summit, is the opposition telling him to resign, but not actually forcing him out.

Pointless.


Yatesman
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Sep 26, 2019, 10:43 AM

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Post #220 of 419 (793 views)
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Out of interest, does anyone think it was worth recalling Parliament for that 12 hours of play-ground nonsense yesterday?

Both sides spitting poison at each other does little to resolve the crisis of the day or make the U.K. look particularly good.

So, all weíll get until Boris comes back from the EU summit, is the opposition telling him to resign, but not actually forcing him out.

Pointless.


Yesterday's proceedings may have been regarded as 'lawful' but they were most definitely 'void' and of 'no effect'

Emotionally illiterate Labour MP's spitting vitriol and bile and throwing out spurios accusations and exploiting the grief of the death of an MP was
as low as it gets.

Did the Supreme Court rule against the Government for that ShitShow?

More proof that MP's live in a bubble where they take up even more parliamentary time on their own issues , their own anxieties and their own prejudices...........Stuff the electorate let's focus on US!!!


jon b
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Post #221 of 419 (758 views)
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In Reply To
Out of interest, does anyone think it was worth recalling Parliament for that 12 hours of play-ground nonsense yesterday?

Both sides spitting poison at each other does little to resolve the crisis of the day or make the U.K. look particularly good.

So, all weíll get until Boris comes back from the EU summit, is the opposition telling him to resign, but not actually forcing him out.

Pointless.


Yesterday's proceedings may have been regarded as 'lawful' but they were most definitely 'void' and of 'no effect'

Emotionally illiterate Labour MP's spitting vitriol and bile and throwing out spurios accusations and exploiting the grief of the death of an MP was
as low as it gets.

Did the Supreme Court rule against the Government for that ShitShow?

More proof that MP's live in a bubble where they take up even more parliamentary time on their own issues , their own anxieties and their own prejudices...........Stuff the electorate let's focus on US!!!


007 rightly pointed out that both sides were "spitting poison at each other". Trying to pretend that one side were worse than the other simply isn't credible. The language employed by both sides matter. Otherwise Jo Cox isn't the only actual casualty that Brexcrement will produce.

Personally, I found the fifth rate amateur dramatics of Geoffrey Cox particularly risible and pathetic.

What amazes me is why Johnson made such a stupid blunder as opting for an extended prorogation when ever since the 2016 Referendum the Commons had shown no ability to decide on anything. All he did was unite the various anti No Deal factions. The usual standard Recess over the Conference season would have been a non controversial way of disposing of at least three weeks of Commons sitting, if he'd really thought it necessary.

For once I agree with Nigel Farage and his assessment of prorogation as being the "worst political decision ever".

https://www.express.co.uk/...ion-Dominic-Cummings
.


PaulC
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Post #222 of 419 (749 views)
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Jess Philips currently speaking in Parliament stating this week she received a death threat ... quoting Johnson.

It does no good trying to defend and normalise the appalling behaviour of Johnson and his gang of cronies. Johnson is the personification of amorality. He and his cronies are a moral vacuum.

Tories are heading down the same path as the Nazi party. They attack any opposition as traitors, they shut down and silence parliament. They defy the law and threaten the judiciary.

If anyone still wonders how Germany, an advanced democracy, went mad in the 1930s, now they know. Destroy Parliamentary democracy, turn the people against the parliament and exploit the stupidity of so many in the electorate who are so easily led by the media they control.


Towlawtom
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Post #223 of 419 (749 views)
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Yesterday was probably the lowest we've ever seen from any PM in UK parliamentary history. He sank lower than a snakes belly in my view with The mention of Jo Cox death. It went way beyond politics. This was just downright inflammatory rhetoric designed to stoke up division, as callous as it gets !



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !


PaulC
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Caroline Nokes recounting being told in Romsey she was a traitor who deserved to be shot.

This is the world of Tory Brexit.


jon b
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In Reply To
Out of interest, does anyone think it was worth recalling Parliament for that 12 hours of play-ground nonsense yesterday?

Both sides spitting poison at each other does little to resolve the crisis of the day or make the U.K. look particularly good.

So, all weíll get until Boris comes back from the EU summit, is the opposition telling him to resign, but not actually forcing him out.

Pointless.


Awful to watch.

Maybe Johnson should have delayed his return from the USA and let Gove lead in the debate. It's possible he was jet lagged and that affected his judgement and performance. I don't think his up and at 'em approach won him any friends among the Labour MPs for Leave voting constituencies that he needs (on the current state of the parties) to pass any Deal through Parliament.

.


Mr. T
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Post #226 of 419 (1055 views)
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Johnson did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was done by Labour MPs.


PaulC
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Johnson did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was done by Labour MPs.


ďThe best way to honour Jo Coxís memory is to get Brexit doneĒ
Boris Johnson


PaulC
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I don't think his up and at 'em approach won him any friends among the Labour MPs for Leave voting constituencies that he needs (on the current state of the parties) to pass any Deal through Parliament.

.


It wasn't really for House of Commons consumption. It was just red meet for the 35%. Upping the ante for the gammon which respond positively to Johnson's vitriol It will all have been wargamed by Johnson and his cronies.


Mr. T
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In Reply To

In Reply To
Johnson did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was done by Labour MPs.


ďThe best way to honour Jo Coxís memory is to get Brexit doneĒ
Boris Johnson


And?


Yatesman
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Sep 26, 2019, 1:39 PM

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Post #230 of 419 (1018 views)
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In Reply To
Johnson did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was done by Labour MPs.


Exactly!

It's the emotional illiteracy of Opposition MPs that has create poisonous rhetoric.
They play the emotive card whenever they cant find the race card.
A labour MP mentioned Cox .....the PM gave it the correct perspective....

Get Brexit Done!

Btw has any else seen the nasty, seething ,objectionable and hate filled ranting of Labours poison Dwarf, John McDonnell doing the rounds on Twitter?

Truly bloody shocking!


paulh66
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I sat watching two hours of that fiasco with jaw to the floor. Shocking stuff. Anyone on either side trying to squeeze even a drop of one-upmanship out of that disgusting pantomime really needs to look at themselves.

Most depressing thing for the political state of the country, regardless of what happens in the next few weeks, is there's no real groundswell of gravitas and integrity waiting in the political wings.

Dangerous times.


PaulC
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Post #232 of 419 (1004 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
Johnson did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was done by Labour MPs.


ďThe best way to honour Jo Coxís memory is to get Brexit doneĒ
Boris Johnson


And?


And that was his own comment. He decided to pick up the reference to Jo Cox and run with it in a reply to a further question in order to sell Brexit.

Shameful stuff.

https://metro.co.uk/...rexit-done-10809336/


PaulC
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It's interesting, though unsurprising, to see who they are who seek to defend and normalise the behaviour of Johnson.

The man is a boor, a racist, a liar, a faciliatator of assault on a journalist. He seeks to close down Parliamentary debate.

He is totally unfit for public office and this reflects very badly on those who stand up for this moral vacuum.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 26, 2019, 1:56 PM)


Mr. T
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The shame was solely on the Labour MPs. He was put on the spot by them. He could have ignored it; he could have answered it better. Some of the media headlines are shamefully misleading.


PaulC
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You think the best way to honour the memory of someone who argued against Brexit and was murdered by a Brexiteer is to support Brexit.???


Here's what Johnson's sister Rachel thinks of him.

https://twitter.com/.../1177191675048943616

If I were supporting amorality personified I would be having a major rethink.


Mr. T
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You think the best way to honour the memory of someone who argued against Brexit and was murdered by a Brexiteer is to support Brexit?

That is a grotesque misrepresentation of what I wrote. Shame on you too.


PaulC
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Sep 26, 2019, 2:12 PM

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You think the best way to honour the memory of someone who argued against Brexit and was murdered by a Brexiteer is to support Brexit?

That is a grotesque misrepresentation of what I wrote. Shame on you too.


It's what Johnson said. In a QUESTION I asked if that was what you thought too.


Yatesman
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Sep 26, 2019, 2:13 PM

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You think the best way to honour the memory of someone who argued against Brexit and was murdered by a Brexiteer is to support Brexit.???


Here's what Johnson's sister Rachel thinks of him.

https://twitter.com/.../1177191675048943616

If I were supporting amorality personified I would be having a major rethink.


That's tosh....
Jo Cox's position on Brexit is irrelevant to the democratic choice of the UK electorate. The political position of the killer should have no influence or bearing on polo
It is today.

What Jo Cox campaigned for was TOLERANCE and COMMON GROUND, and you using her death to campaign for stopping Brexit is disgusting and trying to justify the campaign to stop Brexit because Jo Cox just happened to be a remainer.
If Jo Cox liked red shoes are you saying we should all wear red shoes..

Your point


Mr. T
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You think the best way to honour the memory of someone who argued against Brexit and was murdered by a Brexiteer is to support Brexit?

That is a grotesque misrepresentation of what I wrote. Shame on you too.

It's what Johnson said. In a QUESTION I asked if that was what you thought too.


No. The misrepresentation IS your question and the manner of its asking. I had already written that he could have responded differently.

If you were to argue that Johnson is a poor performer at the Despatch Box I would agree with you. He's not quick enough on his feet in those circumstances and his merry little quips and off-the-cuff one-liners, which should be left outside, were always going to get him in to trouble but he did not raise the subject of Jo Cox. That was quite disgracefully done by Labour MPs.

The events in the HoC of the last two days have been appalling. Few come out with any credit.


PaulC
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Sep 26, 2019, 4:59 PM

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The events in the HoC of the last two days have been appalling. Few come out with any credit.


One who does is Jeremy Corbyn.

Whilst Johnson fights for a place in the gutter, appealing to the lowest common denominator of the UK electorate, Corbyn behaves like a consummate parliamentarian. Despite all attempts by the Tory rent-a-mob on the backbenches Corbyn just gets on with it. Never riled ,no theatrics, invariably polite and respectful of the House and the Speaker.

The contrast with the amoral, opportunist, entitled Johnson could not be greater.


Yatesman
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The events in the HoC of the last two days have been appalling. Few come out with any credit.


One who does is Jeremy Corbyn.

Whilst Johnson fights for a place in the gutter, appealing to the lowest common denominator of the UK electorate, Corbyn behaves like a consummate parliamentarian. Despite all attempts by the Tory rent-a-mob on the backbenches Corbyn just gets on with it. Never riled ,no theatrics, invariably polite and respectful of the House and the Speaker.

The contrast with the amoral, opportunist, entitled Johnson could not be greater.


You think his indifference towards Brexit and the Electorate is noble?

You think that forgives him his support for Irish murderers and terrorists, his friendship ( his words) with Hamas and Hezbollah?

Did you look at the twitter footage of John McDonnel and his threats of violence?

Do you still support milkshaking?

You mght suffer from selective amnesia but I don't and nor do the electorate.

Johnson has not said anything untoward but the extreme emotive reactions on the opposition benches is indicative of their lack of suitability for the job of MP.

GE Now and we can purge parliament of these charlatans.


PaulC
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Most of that does not relate to Corbyn.

None of it relates to his deportment in the Commons.

Apart from that, great comeback. LOL!


007Dale
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I have a feeling the remainers are falling into the same trap they did during the 2016 referendum. Mud-slinging at Boris, is only going to strengthen the voters resolve for Leave. They are out-of-touch with the public.

My God, Boris is not perfect, as evidenced by his performance yesterday, but heís viewed as someone trying to deliver on the Peopleís wishes.

I know for some people the thought is horrifying and they wonít believe the British people will vote for him, but I think every day that passes is increasing his majority in the upcoming General Election.


PaulC
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I have a feeling the remainers are falling into the same trap they did during the 2016 referendum. Mud-slinging at Boris, is only going to strengthen the voters resolve for Leave. They are out-of-touch with the public.

My God, Boris is not perfect, as evidenced by his performance yesterday, but heís viewed as someone trying to deliver on the Peopleís wishes.

I know for some people the thought is horrifying and they wonít believe the British people will vote for him, but I think every day that passes is increasing his majority in the upcoming General Election.


What the opposition parties have been doing is stopping a calamitous No Deal Brexit. No more, no less.

No one in their right minds can look at the consequences of a No Deal Brexit and say "Bring it on!" At the moment, they are putting their energies into preventing Johnson doing just that.

As for every day increasing his majority - the evidence is quite the opposite. The gap is narrowing.

And. of course there is now a majority against Brexit - of the order of 54-46.


Yatesman
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I have a feeling the remainers are falling into the same trap they did during the 2016 referendum. Mud-slinging at Boris, is only going to strengthen the voters resolve for Leave. They are out-of-touch with the public.

My God, Boris is not perfect, as evidenced by his performance yesterday, but heís viewed as someone trying to deliver on the Peopleís wishes.

I know for some people the thought is horrifying and they wonít believe the British people will vote for him, but I think every day that passes is increasing his majority in the upcoming General Election.


What the opposition parties have been doing is stopping a calamitous No Deal Brexit. No more, no less.


You don't believe that , I don't believe that, The Country does not believe that !


That's as honest as Boris claiming prorogation was not about Brexit!


The problem forthe opposition is there is not a single person on this planet that does not think the opposition's only objective is to halt Brexit.

If that wasn't so the opposition would be working to get the best deal possible.............They woulld be hrlping the Gov't.

They would not be hamstringing the Gov't's negotiating capability.
They would not be colluding with the EU.
They would not be colluding with unelected , wealthy business people and using their resources against the express wishes of the electorate.
They would not have progressed The Surrender Bill through the House.

My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way and feel the way the EU and European leaders across all 27 States have disrespected the UK, disrespected our negotiators and disrespected our former PM and disrespected our current PM............

They no longer feel at home in the EU!


MelChester
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Not sure where you actually live but I would say the complete opposite, the UK government has been disrespecting to the EU. Most leavers I know either now want to remain or have a Norway type deal. The latter which most thought they were voting for in the first place, not No Deal.


007Dale
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Post #247 of 419 (673 views)
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As for every day increasing his majority - the evidence is quite the opposite. The gap is narrowing.

.


Even your trusty polls canít back up that:

YouGov 19-20 Sept: Tories 30 / Labour 23
YouGov 24-25 Sept: Tories 33 / Labour 22

BTW, that last You Gov poll would give the Tories a 64 seat majority.

Sadly, the remainers fall into the same trap every time. They are so full of self-righteousness that they fail to understand the mood of the general population. They consistently fail to comprehend what people want and therefore donít offer them a viable alternative when campaigning. All national votes in since 2014 prove it, yet remainers cling to the view that if you constantly talk down to leavers they will change their mind.

If I was a remainer, I would beg the politicians to change tact.


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 8:49 AM

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Post #248 of 419 (668 views)
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ComRes 24/9
Lab 27%
Tories 27%

Survation 25/9
Tories 27% -2
Lab 24%
LD 22%


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 27, 2019, 10:08 AM)


Yatesman
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ComRes 24/9
Lab 27%
Tories 27%

Survation 25/9
Tories 27% -2
Lab 24%
LD 22%


You don't believe that.

I don't believe that.

The country doesn't believe that.



Polls have been criminally misleading for years.
Anyone who quotes polls to make a point is being disingenuous.


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 10:19 AM

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LOL!


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 10:25 AM

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My God, Boris is not perfect, as evidenced by his performance yesterday, but heís viewed as someone trying to deliver on the Peopleís wishes.


Should Johnson resign?

Yes 43%
No 39%


jon b
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Post #252 of 419 (1073 views)
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Sadly, the remainers fall into the same trap every time. They are so full of self-righteousness that they fail to understand the mood of the general population.

They consistently fail to comprehend what people want and therefore donít offer them a viable alternative when campaigning. All national votes in since 2014 prove it, yet remainers cling to the view that if you constantly talk down to leavers they will change their mind.

If I was a remainer, I would beg the politicians to change tact.


There's at least as much self righteousness among Leavers as among Remainers.

And the "Will of the People" so frequently and mystically invoked is simply the will of 52% of the electorate on a Poll held more than three years ago.

As for the current "mood of the general population" I'd be very wary of deciding what that is purely by the people we personally associate with, or the propaganda being peddled by the newspapers on both sides of the argument.

One of the fake news elements of the Johnson line is that it is just Remainers who have prevented us leaving the EU. May's Deal would have taken us out of the EU back in March but was voted down by a combination of Remainers and Extremist Conservative Leavers of Steve Baker/Andrew Bridgen ilk and their DUP allies.

.


PaulC
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My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way[


Reality is quite different from your own narrow experience. It's amusing reading about your disdain for scientifically conducted polls whilst extrapolating your partner's views to represent the whole of the UK!

Polls show the Remain lead is in the order of 54-46%. None of the 100+ polls conducted since 2017 has shown a majority in favour of leaving the EU.

We have changed our minds.


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 11:23 AM

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Don't forget Johnson among those who brought down May's deal.


007Dale
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My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way[


Reality is quite different from your own narrow experience. It's amusing reading about your disdain for scientifically conducted polls whilst extrapolating your partner's views to represent the whole of the UK!

Polls show the Remain lead is in the order of 54-46%. None of the 100+ polls conducted since 2017 has shown a majority in favour of leaving the EU.

We have changed our minds.


Oh dear, clinging to false hope. Some things never change.


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 11:34 AM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way[


Reality is quite different from your own narrow experience. It's amusing reading about your disdain for scientifically conducted polls whilst extrapolating your partner's views to represent the whole of the UK!

Polls show the Remain lead is in the order of 54-46%. None of the 100+ polls conducted since 2017 has shown a majority in favour of leaving the EU.

We have changed our minds.


Oh dear, clinging to false hope. Some things never change.



LOL! Brexiteer head-in-sand par excellence.

But I'll bite Please provide one iota of evidence that there is now a majority in favour of leaving. Just one


007Dale
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way[


Reality is quite different from your own narrow experience. It's amusing reading about your disdain for scientifically conducted polls whilst extrapolating your partner's views to represent the whole of the UK!

Polls show the Remain lead is in the order of 54-46%. None of the 100+ polls conducted since 2017 has shown a majority in favour of leaving the EU.

We have changed our minds.


Oh dear, clinging to false hope. Some things never change.



LOL! Brexiteer head-in-sand par excellence.

But I'll bite Please provide one iota of evidence that there is now a majority in favour of leaving. Just one


Iíll invite you to look at the last actual election results in June (European elections).


PaulC
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Sep 27, 2019, 11:54 AM

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And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?


jon b
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Post #259 of 419 (994 views)
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Even your trusty polls canít back up that:



Apparently the problem for opinion pollsters is that we've all become promiscuous.



That is in terms of which parties we vote for, Cool we're much more prepared to play the field than used to be the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/...redict-next-election

And I must admit that after voting for the same party in 11 successive General Elections, last time out I decided to vote for the best candidate instead and ended up voting for a party I'd never voted for before.

I didn't realise that the candidate was a convinced Fracker. Frown

Fortunately, she lost.

.


Yatesman
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My partner voted Remain because she wanted to keep the Status Quo................Now she would vote Leave because the Status Quo has been shattered.

Many Remainers now feel that way[


Reality is quite different from your own narrow experience. It's amusing reading about your disdain for scientifically conducted polls whilst extrapolating your partner's views to represent the whole of the UK!

Polls show the Remain lead is in the order of 54-46%. None of the 100+ polls conducted since 2017 has shown a majority in favour of leaving the EU.

We have changed our minds.



Except I didn't extrapolate my partner's views to represent the whole nation.

You're lying to yourself by concluding that.

I stated her change of emphasis is now to Get Brexit Done because there is no going back to how it used to be...........That's a Remainer Unicorn.

I then stated that many remainers feel the same, based on vox pops from the news and social media............

I challenge you to tell me that not a single Remainer voter doesn't want us to honour the result and Leave because I am hearing it all the time.

We were Leave before, with Remainer suppport outside The Bubble the country is even more Leave than ever it was !!


Yatesman
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And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?



That The Brexit Party trumped all others by a Country Mile and The Labour Party campaigned to hnour the result of the referendum by negoriating a withdrawal deal with the EU therefore it campaigned as a Leave Party.

Had this election been a GE then The Brexit Party would have had a massive majority and been the current Govt,

Polls mean Diddley Shit.

It's elections that count

People lie to pollsters

Election results are the reality.

Why do you need that explained to you?


PaulC
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In Reply To
And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?



That The Brexit Party trumped all others by a Country Mile and The Labour Party campaigned to hnour the result of the referendum by negoriating a withdrawal deal with the EU therefore it campaigned as a Leave Party.

Had this election been a GE then The Brexit Party would have had a massive majority and been the current Govt,

Polls mean Diddley Shit.

It's elections that count

People lie to pollsters

Election results are the reality.

Why do you need that explained to you?

What on earth are you on about?

The figures above are election results, not poll results.

For Brexit parties 42.5% - pretty close to the poll findings of around 46%, though perhaps they overestimate the size of what is left of support for Brexit.


007Dale
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And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?


Remain:
Liberal: 19.6%
Green: 11.8%
Change: 3.3%
SNP: 3.6%
PC: 1.0%

So a 42.5% v 39.3% result for parties explicitly supporting Brexit over explicitly supporting Remain.

I know it might be hard to remember Labours Brexit position in June, as itís flip-flopped so much, but here it is:
- we will seek to do a deal with the EU on our terms and if that is not possible, we seek a General Election.

The consequences of the Labour position changing to include a second referendum, will be laid bare at the next general election.


jon b
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Post #264 of 419 (746 views)
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Trying to interpret how those figures will relate to the outcome of the upcoming election is a nightmare for all concerned.

For instance the percentages don't necessarily stay the same across the country, so what impact the various parties stance will have in different areas isn't easy to predict. One obvious example is that the very small SNP, PC percentages actually translate into very significant percentages in Scotland and Wales.

There's also the issue of impact of electoral pacts, formal or otherwise. I don't see any likelihood of any such arrangement between Labour and Lib Dem, and currently it's uncertain whether Brexit and the Conservatives will hang together or separately.

A General Election is a clumsy way of settling a single issue crisis.

One difficulty is that large parts ofthe electorate may decide that other questions are more important to them than Brexit and vote according to the parties stance on those matters eg problems brought about by Austerity.

Johnson/Cummings/Baldrick may think that they can triumph by running a single issue campaign but they may not get the answer they expect.

We may end up with another hung Parliament and even deeper in doo doo.

.


PaulC
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In Reply To

In Reply To
And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?


Remain:
Liberal: 19.6%
Green: 11.8%
Change: 3.3%
SNP: 3.6%
PC: 1.0%

So a 42.5% v 39.3% result for parties explicitly supporting Brexit over explicitly supporting Remain.

I know it might be hard to remember Labours Brexit position in June, as itís flip-flopped so much, but here it is:
- we will seek to do a deal with the EU on our terms and if that is not possible, we seek a General Election.

The consequences of the Labour position changing to include a second referendum, will be laid bare at the next general election.


25% of Labour voters in the Euro elections voted to Leave in 2016. It is hard to imagine that as many woud vote Leave now since many leavers have jumped ship to the Tories or the other Brextremist parties. But even if we use the 25% figure the LAbour percentage would be split 10.2% Remain, 3.4%

That would push up the Leave figure to 45.9%(pretty much in line with the polls).

We no longer want Brexit. Of that there is no doubt.



007Dale
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We may end up with another hung Parliament and even deeper in doo doo


I expect a large Tory majority at the next election. Which resolves the Brexit crisis.

However, if iím wrong, and weíre in hung parliament territory, then I would accept the only resolution is through a second referendum (although good luck getting parliament to agree on a question / questions).

A general election has to be the next step, as parliament no longer upholds the Brexit policy people voted for in 2017 (ie 84% of seats won on the basis of delivering Brexit without a second referendum).


007Dale
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And what do you think a non-binary election result tells us about a binary referendum?

But let's examine the result

Brexit Party 30.5%
Tories 8.8%
Ukip 3.2%

What point do you think you are making?


Remain:
Liberal: 19.6%
Green: 11.8%
Change: 3.3%
SNP: 3.6%
PC: 1.0%

So a 42.5% v 39.3% result for parties explicitly supporting Brexit over explicitly supporting Remain.

I know it might be hard to remember Labours Brexit position in June, as itís flip-flopped so much, but here it is:
- we will seek to do a deal with the EU on our terms and if that is not possible, we seek a General Election.

The consequences of the Labour position changing to include a second referendum, will be laid bare at the next general election.


25% of Labour voters in the Euro elections voted to Leave in 2016. It is hard to imagine that as many woud vote Leave now since many leavers have jumped ship to the Tories or the other Brextremist parties. But even if we use the 25% figure the LAbour percentage would be split 10.2% Remain, 3.4%

That would push up the Leave figure to 45.9%(pretty much in line with the polls).

We no longer want Brexit. Of that there is no doubt.


I must have missed the box on the ballot paper that said, Ďlabour voters, please tick whether you support brexití

Clutching at straws again.....

Iíll let you have the final word on this...


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Sep 28, 2019, 8:31 AM)


PaulC
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Oh dear. This is laughable. You were the one who was unable to come up with any evidence that we now support Brexit and resorted to the 2019 EU poll. A non-binary election which you tried to use to back up a binary referendum.

You are now rubbishing the only bit of evidence you have come up with. This is absolutely hilarious and illustrates the utter head-in-sand attitude of Brexiteeers.

Do you have any evidence that is credible??

LOL!


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 28, 2019, 8:27 AM)


PaulC
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Yatesman
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Oh dear. This is laughable. You were the one who was unable to come up with any evidence that we now support Brexit and resorted to the 2019 EU poll. A non-binary election which you tried to use to back up a binary referendum.

You are now rubbishing the only bit of evidence you have come up with. This is absolutely hilarious and illustrates the utter head-in-sand attitude of Brexiteeers.

Do you have any evidence that is credible??

LOL!



If there is any doubt that the country supports Leave a European election that was boycotted by millions of Leave voters and yet which Leave parties won the majority of the vote ( as per post #267) and in which The Brexit Party won the largest share of the vote by far in their first election provides absolute evidence that Remain has simply not gained any further traction.

Imagine if that had been another EU referendum and Leave campaigners actually mobilised their full support behind Leave.

I , for one, didn't vote in the European Election.

I also believe this week's shenanigan's in the courts and in Parliament has
hardened people's desire and determination to just ' Get Brexit Done'.
Labour's decision to use the ghost of Jo Cox to gain political ground and to deny the use of proper and decent language that dares cruiticise their actions and position was a mistake that backfired .
Since when has 'surrender' been an offensive word?

You, Paul C, need to get outside your Remainer Bubble and start listening to a wider audience.


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Sep 28, 2019, 9:07 AM)


PaulC
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If there is any doubt that the country supports Leave a European election that was boycotted by millions of Leave voters


Evidence?


In Reply To
in which The Brexit Party won the largest share of the vote by far in their first election provides absolute evidence that Remain has simply not gained any further traction.


How does a party called the BREXIT PARTY getting less thanka third of the vote prove Remain has not gained any further traction?

That is just nonsense.


In Reply To
I also believe this week's shenanigan's in the courts and in Parliament has
hardened people's desire and determination to just ' Get Brexit Done'.


Parliament will decide. We will not leave on 31 October, there will be a second referendum and enough of the electorate wil see sense and will vote to remain in the EU.

Repeating Theresa May/Boris Johnson/Daily Mail soundbites is meaningless.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 28, 2019, 9:18 AM)


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We no longer want Brexit. Of that there is no doubt.



Will you stop speaking for me.

52% - 48%. Out.





July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



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 I think you will find the figures you quote are from three and a half years ago.

We have collectively changed our minds since then as all the evidence shows.


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The only thing that Polls prove is that Remain voters are more likely to register with and engage with Pollsters than Leave voters.

Maybe because they have better access to the internet and more time on their hands.

Also it iis obvious that Remainers are bad losers and far more angry and therefore more likely to express their rage through engaging with pollsters.

To Extrapolate any poll to represent the whole electorate is dodgy science.

It is fundamentally wrong to say that Statistically Significant represents facts or scientificly definitive data.

You are a charlatan in presenting polls as the views of the nation.....

Game , Set and Match, Pal!


dottirofhod
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STOP USING THE WE.

Sure all your blether was heard 4 years ago and look what happened then, because of people like you and your kind a result was obtained but never implemented.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



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The only thing that Polls prove is that Remain voters are more likely to register with and engage with Pollsters than Leave voters.


Evidence.

Yatesman - you really have to realise that simply stating something as fact does not make it so

If you wish to have your theories taken seriously, come up with some evidence.


Quote
To Extrapolate any poll to represent the whole electorate is dodgy science.

It is fundamentally wrong to say that Statistically Significant represents facts or scientificly definitive data.


And so on what do you base your belief that the majority still supports Leave? Is it scientifically more valid than opinion polling?

I suspect the greatest piece of evidence that support for Leave is disappearing like snaw aff a dyke is the utter fear those still supporting the cause have of a confirmatory referendum.

They know in their hearts the game is up.


PaulC
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STOP USING THE WE.


"WE" is a perfectly accurate description of the UK electorate of which you and I are part.


dottirofhod
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STOP USING THE WE.


"WE" is a perfectly accurate description of the UK electorate of which you and I are part.



Well WE voted 52%-48% three and a half years ago didn't WE ? Why are WE here now.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



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Game , Set and Match, Pal!


Internet rules and laws: the top 10, from Godwin to Poe

6. Danthís Law (also known as Parkerís Law)
States: ďIf you have to insist that you've won an internet argument, you've probably lost badly.Ē

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/...m-Godwin-to-Poe.html


leohoenig
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The only thing that is clear and certain from the multitude of (contradictory) posts telling me what is clear and certain is that nothing is clear and certain.

Brexit is not a binary decsion, there are still three options, Hard (No Deal) Brexit, Brexit with a deal and Remain - this is why it has stalled, there is not enough support in Parliament for any one of the three to get passed. Our current prime minister has voted for different options at different times. Jacob Rees-Mogg has said in parliament that a second referendum on the terms of a deal was an option.

The exact reasons why each voter voted in a specific way is never known, the number of voters from each side that have changed positions is unknown. All the polls show the country is split over the issue. We might now be able to get 52-48 in favour of remain, (after which we should have a penalty shoot out)



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



PaulC
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Well WE voted 52%-48% three and a half years ago didn't WE ? Why are WE here now.


Yes we did.

And in the intervening period we have changed our mind. Why should we, in 2019, punish ourselves by imposing on ourselves something we no longer want?

It makes no sense at all.

...unless you can explain the sense of making ourselves do something we no longer want to do.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 28, 2019, 9:45 AM)


dottirofhod
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WE should have implemented the outcome but poor losers like YOU have been complaining ever since. YOU and your ilk are nauseating ( On this topic).



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



(This post was edited by dottirofhod on Sep 28, 2019, 10:09 AM)


PaulC
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WE should have implemented the outcome but poor losers like YOU have been complaining ever since. YOU and your ilk are nauseating.


Well we haven't implemented the outcome and in the intervening time we have changed our minds. Why should we punish ourselves by doing what we no longer want to do?


(This post was edited by PaulC on Sep 28, 2019, 11:49 AM)


dottirofhod
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WE should have implemented the outcome but poor losers like YOU have been complaining ever since. YOU and your ilk are nauseating.


Well we haven't implemented the outcome and in the intervening time we have changed our minds. Why should be punish ourselves by doing what we no longer want to do?


In YOUR opinion.
Shove your polls , they mean nothing, I suppose you enter as many polls as possible , I would not know where to go to fill one in and no one rings me to poll. Your phone red hot ?

When it comes to voting , that used to be different but now I'm unsure , if the minority can stop the majority will.



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



PaulC
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Perhaps the problem is we ended up with the wrong Johnson.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/...uk-politics-49594793

Maybe we should have tried to persuade Joe or Labour's Alan to be PM.

.


Or Rachel.

I wonder if Johnson will survive long enough for the impending Vote of No Confidence or if the Black Maria will have picked him up before then.

We are now in the realm of possible criminal charges.

"Boris Johnson referred to police watchdog over friendship with businesswoman Jennifer Arcuri"



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Shove your polls , they mean nothing






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Shove your polls , they mean nothing






YOU like MY post 272 then ?



July 1, 2019 to June 30,2020 = 111 / 94 / 17 / 4 x 0-0's. (You know my rules) @ 21 / 11 / 2019 . Belgium top 5 tiers 0-0-0-(0-1-0)-(0-1-1-2) / Holland top 4 tiers - 0-0-0-(0-0) / Lux top 2 tiers 0 -2. England top 10 tiers - 0. Now blogging at https://eccentricity.video.blog/



Yatesman
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In Reply To

The only thing that Polls prove is that Remain voters are more likely to register with and engage with Pollsters than Leave voters.


Evidence.

Yatesman - you really have to realise that simply stating something as fact does not make it so

If you wish to have your theories taken seriously, come up with some evidence.


Quote
To Extrapolate any poll to represent the whole electorate is dodgy science.

It is fundamentally wrong to say that Statistically Significant represents facts or scientificly definitive data.


And so on what do you base your belief that the majority still supports Leave? Is it scientifically more valid than opinion polling?

I suspect the greatest piece of evidence that support for Leave is disappearing like snaw aff a dyke is the utter fear those still supporting the cause have of a confirmatory referendum.

They know in their hearts the game is up.



We have established that polls come under the category of 'Dodgy Science'

We agree that something that might be considered ' Statistically Significant' is no substitute for ' Definitive Data'

and therefore it's correct to conclude that your continued and obsessive use of polls does NOT equate to evidence.

The ONLY definitive data with regard to the country's position on membership of the EU was the result of the 2016 referendum.

You know the data relative to that event.

Therefore we have the data to conclude the nation supports Leave.

The onus is on YOU to prove , through definitive data, the opposite is true.

You have been unable thus far to do that.


PaulC
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The ONLY definitive data with regard to the country's position on membership of the EU was the result of the 2016 referendum.

You know the data relative to that event.

Therefore we have the data to conclude the nation supports Leave.


Wrong.

That event was nearly three and half years ago. We know that in June 2016 the electorate supportED Leave. That does not tell us what we support now.

ALL the evidence now is that the electorate does not support Leave.

It also explains why the surviving Leavers are set against a confirmatory referendum once we know the deal (if any) on offer.

They know the game is up. Enough of the electorate now sees sense.


PaulC
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Leading Brexiteers now inciting people to riot. This is the state of the Leave campaign now.

There is a criminal offence of incitement to riot.

https://twitter.com/...571381216718849?s=20


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In Reply To

The ONLY definitive data with regard to the country's position on membership of the EU was the result of the 2016 referendum.

You know the data relative to that event.

Therefore we have the data to conclude the nation supports Leave.


Wrong.

That event was nearly three and half years ago. We know that in June 2016 the electorate supportED Leave. That does not tell us what we support now.

ALL the evidence now is that the electorate does not support Leave.

It also explains why the surviving Leavers are set against a confirmatory referendum once we know the deal (if any) on offer.

They know the game is up. Enough of the electorate now sees sense.



You have NO evidence that the electorate does not support Leave , only Dodgy Science.

The reason why Leavers are against a confirmatory referendum is because they know it is in reality a disigenuous attemppt to stop Brexit.
Leavers want the 2016 referendum honoured before any form of 2nd referendum.....So NOW you know the real reason.

Your use of the word surviving is offensive and shows the cesspit within your cranium.

At least you accept that the only definitive data available shows the nation supports Leaving the EU.


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