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Home: Non-League Football Discussion: Restructuring Discussion:
Appeals - Summer 2019

 

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windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 17, 2019, 7:51 PM

Posts: 10427
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #476 of 532 (3360 views)
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Re: [Carter] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The new regualations are here

http://handbook.fapublications.com/#!/book/30


ladderman
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 17, 2019, 8:19 PM

Posts: 7419
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Re: [windydcfc] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It was in the north of England for a while


keneastlancs
Reserve Team Regular

Jun 17, 2019, 8:50 PM

Posts: 566
Location: Darwen Lancashire
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Post #478 of 532 (3181 views)
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Re: [Brightside] RRe: [Geoff] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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There are due to be 76 teams promoted from Step 6 to Step 5 next season and 12 teams relegated but there are only 63 spaces, if Barkingside are reprieved then there will be only 62 spaces.

Sure there will likely be some clubs who drop out but they may need to change the promotion / relegation criteria

The bottom club from each step six IS relegated next year so that's the diffwrence in numbers


Richard Rundle
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Jun 17, 2019, 9:32 PM

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Post #479 of 532 (3059 views)
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Re: [keneastlancs] RRe: [Geoff] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
There are due to be 76 teams promoted from Step 6 to Step 5 next season and 12 teams relegated but there are only 63 spaces, if Barkingside are reprieved then there will be only 62 spaces.

Sure there will likely be some clubs who drop out but they may need to change the promotion / relegation criteria

The bottom club from each step six IS relegated next year so that's the diffwrence in numbers


That won't affect the Step 5-6 promotions/relegations though, will it?


petermiller36
First Team Sub

Jun 18, 2019, 12:11 AM

Posts: 1112
Location: Nottingham
Team(s): Ware & AFC Wimbledon

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Re: [petermiller36] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Outstanding appeals:

Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Unknown
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Unknown

Didn't appeal:

Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - Withdrawn appeal

Settled appeals:

Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Rejected
Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Carlisle City - placement in Northern 2 - Rejected
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Successful
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - Successful
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Successful
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - Rejected
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Pewsey Vale - placement in Wessex 1 - Rejected
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


Richard Rundle
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 18, 2019, 7:29 AM

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Post #481 of 532 (2427 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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The FA have not blocked it. The regulations made this practise obsolete. The fact that these promotions would be in house has been overridden for some time.
They are not part of the NLS in Division 2 so promotion in any event was at the discretion of the FA. Whether applied for or not.
And it seems that level of lenient discretion is a thing of the past.
Probably pressure and objections from County FAs who just do not approve of elevation from below step 7.


The Hellenic have now posted a news item that says that both Bourton Rovers and Moreton Rangers have, indeed, been elevated from Division Two to Division One

https://www.hellenicleague.co.uk/club_news/hellenic.html

(see item dated June 18, 2019)


wazzafan
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Jun 18, 2019, 8:11 AM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Hats off to the Hellenic for pressuring the FA enough to make it happen. Common Sense prevails.



Non League Projections - 2018/19: http://goo.gl/5UvkvE

Step 1: http://goo.gl/9QipfY
Step 2: http://goo.gl/VoE1oY
Step 3: http://goo.gl/Ru3jUk
Step 4: http://goo.gl/QHVmDA
Step 5: http://goo.gl/VrnrYg
Step 6: http://goo.gl/Mk86of


ramblingrover
Junior Team Regular

Jun 18, 2019, 8:27 AM

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Post #483 of 532 (2306 views)
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Re: [wazzafan] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Hats off to the Hellenic for pressuring the FA enough to make it happen. Common Sense prevails.


Absolute disgrace this barmy decision will finish step 7 leagues in the Hellenic footprint - why go through tough league like the Gloucestershire County League when as soon as you think you have funding for good facilities you just join the Hellenic Division Two's and get promoted next season.

Proof that cheats do prosper,


Unicorn
Chelsea Transfer Target

Jun 18, 2019, 8:50 AM

Posts: 3866
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Post #484 of 532 (2253 views)
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Re: [ramblingrover] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

If only the FA would say from the outset for the next couple of seasons we will sometimes do what is expedient rather than what is obviously fair or unfair.
It would greatly simplify matters.


Sunny Nunny
Youth Team Star

Jun 18, 2019, 8:50 AM

Posts: 366
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Re: [ramblingrover] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Don't know if this has been mentioned , but also states that due to the large amount of new sides applying to join the league division two will have three divisions next season .


Unicorn
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Jun 18, 2019, 9:07 AM

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Post #486 of 532 (2193 views)
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Re: [Sunny Nunny] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Don't know if this has been mentioned , but also states that due to the large amount of new sides applying to join the league division two will have three divisions next season .


They have actually elevated four clubs.


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 18, 2019, 9:28 AM

Posts: 6291
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Post #487 of 532 (2141 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Absolutely pathetic decision on so many levels and for so many reasons.


ramblingrover
Junior Team Regular

Jun 18, 2019, 9:45 AM

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Re: [Unicorn] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Don't know if this has been mentioned , but also states that due to the large amount of new sides applying to join the league division two will have three divisions next season .


They have actually elevated four clubs.


My point exactly the Hellenic is trying to expand and destroy the step 7 leagues below it, this abomination of a league is run as a business with paid officers and volunteers running the step 7 leagues can't compete.


Jim Shortwood
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Jun 18, 2019, 9:59 AM

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Re: [ramblingrover] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

whatever your feelings you have to have felt sympathy for the clubs already in the Hellenic 1 divisions. and 14 is not a league.. whether the decision was right or wrong, fair or not fair.. what other options were available? and don't say run with 14 clubs.. it is not enough..and the Hellenic feeders did not have any further clubs who could be promoted.. I may be wrong here I accept. We got shifted from the Toolstation and did not appeal because we would have got moved next season anyway and at least we will now have a league to play in. The interesting thing is that the Hellenic has had so may applications to join the Division 2's they will run with 3 divisions next season...
With the reorganisation of step 5 and 6 at the end of the season and the redrawing of the areas it will be interesting..


Sarumio
Man City Transfer Target!

Jun 18, 2019, 10:22 AM

Posts: 6291
Location: Ilminster
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Re: [Jim Shortwood] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Why do people keep saying "What other option did hey have"?


This forum has supplied many other option to get the Hellenic Div Ones increased in number, that does not required complete geographical bias, geographical discrimination, FA rule breaking or the dragging in of clubs from leagues outside of the NLS.


And yet we still have people saying "Well, what else could they do"?"


Rant over!


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Jun 18, 2019, 10:33 AM

Posts: 10427
Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #491 of 532 (1942 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Why do people keep saying "What other option did hey have"?


This forum has supplied many other option to get the Hellenic Div Ones increased in number, that does not required complete geographical bias, geographical discrimination, FA rule breaking or the dragging in of clubs from leagues outside of the NLS.


And yet we still have people saying "Well, what else could they do"?"


Rant over!



I agree with you both. There should have been no relegations from step 6(apart from the 1 that failed the ground grading)& if the FA wanted to fill the step 6 league’s up to 20 clubs apiece(especially with the restructuring happening next season). Then they should’ve added these extra clubs from the HL2’s & GSL. No one would’ve argued with that & no one would’ve thought that clubs were getting shafted because of geography. Rob(wazzafan) has shown what can be done & to say that too many clubs will be messed around is nonsense, because next season there will be mass movements.


BDA_85
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Jun 18, 2019, 10:42 AM

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Re: [leohoenig] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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I Have edited the offending post, so as names are not named.
I do not think the e-mail itself should be taken as confidential


I apologise. Sorry for any offence caused.


Reborn Yellow
Youth Team Regular


Jun 18, 2019, 10:45 AM

Posts: 213
Location: Notts Senior League Land
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Re: [windydcfc] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It looks as though some clubs are gambling that Hellenic 2 will be a shortcut to step 6. Will Hellenic 2 even exist after next season?


Sarumio
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Jun 18, 2019, 10:51 AM

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Re: [Reborn Yellow] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

So do Bourton's and Moreton's grounds even pass ground grading for Step 6 - as in does it pass NOW not in 4 months time


Do Bourton even have lights?


Jim Shortwood
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Jun 18, 2019, 10:53 AM

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Post #495 of 532 (1895 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Why do people keep saying "What other option did hey have"?


This forum has supplied many other option to get the Hellenic Div Ones increased in number, that does not required complete geographical bias, geographical discrimination, FA rule breaking or the dragging in of clubs from leagues outside of the NLS.


And yet we still have people saying "Well, what else could they do"?"


Rant over!

[reply

Well I certainly didn't mean to upset you or anyone else.. And I understand your point of view. I just said I felt sympathy for the clubs in a 14 'strong' league and we are one of them. And yes I worded it badly.. The FA could have reprieved.. they didn't.. they could have reorganised better.. they didn't.. they could have treated clubs fairly in their appeals.. they didn't.. but without moving other clubs in at this late stage their is a certain logic in putting these clubs in..
it does not make it fair I accept..


Richard Rundle
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Jun 18, 2019, 11:08 AM

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Post #496 of 532 (1850 views)
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Re: [ramblingrover] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Absolute disgrace this barmy decision will finish step 7 leagues in the Hellenic footprint - why go through tough league like the Gloucestershire County League when as soon as you think you have funding for good facilities you just join the Hellenic Division Two's and get promoted next season.


Perhaps the existing Step 7 leagues need to take a long hard look at themselves and ask themselves why clubs want to join the Hellenic Division Twos? The clubs are the ones that matter, not the leagues. If clubs want to follow a particular path, red tape and league officials egos should not be stopping them.


In Reply To
Proof that cheats do prosper,


That is a very serious allegation. I can't see who has cheated here.


paulh66
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Jun 18, 2019, 11:37 AM

Posts: 19155
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

A few relevant points:

1) If the four clubs went through the proper application process (as stipulated in the regs) back in January, and met the defined criteria for determining the outcome of that process (which they certainly appear to do), then their promotions are a no-brainer.

2) If they didn't go through the prescribed application process the waters are a little muddier. On the one hand, it could certainly be argued the four clubs were parachuted into the NLS and by-passed procedures; on the other hand, maybe they're just innocent parties trapped in a transition year - one year after the Hellenic lost its own powers over promotion/relegation and one year before the next restructuring which will have significant impact on Hellenic territory in particular. Considering too the shortage of clubs in the league this season and the fact that all other avenues to fill it were pursued and came to little, it seems entirely pragmatic not to leave four passengers stuck on the quay while the boat's sailing out of the harbour, possibly for the last time.

3) I understand the argument about the Hellenic protecting, or even expanding, its empire and the perceived conflict between that and the interests of the step 7 county leagues. Looked at in that context, this decision might seem a body blow to the county leagues. But isn't the wider reality that the Hellenic, in its current guise, is living on borrowed time - the restructuring at the end of next season will severely clip its wings at step 6 and maybe even at step 5. And, after that, and once the drawbridge is pulled up even higher on promotions into the NLS from outside of step 7, it's hard to see that Hellenic Div 2 will seriously compete with step 7 leagues in the area, even if it wanted to (and I'm not sure it does in the longer term, rather it'd be mainly a reserve division).

Overall, the decision to promote these four seems to have been welcomed in most quarters. As such, it can be seen as a pragmatic, one-off solution to a one-off problem that's unlikely to recur in the future. Most people, I'd have thought, can at least live with that.

As for the pyramidistas' alt theories to fill the leagues by reprieves and lateral transfers here, there and everywhere - well, fine on paper but that would require a significant change in strategy, one which may cause more trouble for clubs than it solves. I'd agree there are certainly some unanswered questions on a couple of this summer's non-reprieves at step 6 but the situation on lateral transfers is much clearer - the FA will only go there if necessary and, in general, the clubs themselves don't really want it. This is underpinned in the regs (lateral moves are only done on a needs-must basis when clubs haven't voluntarily applied) and borne out by the number of appeals made by the handful of clubs who were actually moved on the needs-must basis. There's some, but little, appetite for it amongst those most affected by it.

Looking forward, once we've finally gone through the growing pains of transitioning to the perfect pyramid in a year's time (ahem..), hopefully we'll end up with clearly-defined, well-populated divisions and a well-defined, streamlined approach to promotion and relegation between them. And, ideally, one in which outcomes aren't decided by ppg or playoffs involving teams who can't go up.


paulh66
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Jun 18, 2019, 11:43 AM

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Post #498 of 532 (1743 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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So do Bourton's and Moreton's grounds even pass ground grading for Step 6 - as in does it pass NOW not in 4 months time

Do Bourton even have lights?


Bourton do not have seats or lights but they can come a little later. That's the case for any team coming up into step 6, subject (I think) to having planning permission and funding in place.


mick
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Jun 18, 2019, 12:03 PM

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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Hellenic announcement states that they pressurised the FA to make "illicit changes", so they are happy to admit that the changes were forbidden by the rules.


paulh66
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Jun 18, 2019, 12:13 PM

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Re: [mick] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Smile
Actually says "to illicit changes" not "to make illicit changes". Think it's meant to say "elicit"..

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