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Appeals - Summer 2019

 

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paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 1:41 PM

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Post #351 of 532 (3896 views)
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Re: [Karen Browne] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As mentioned at the time, it was difficult to see how Colney Heath and London Colney could claim to have "won" their initial appeals when the actual outcome was merely to revisit the original decision/review the underlying reasons behind it. London Colney are now appealing again, according to a local journo, saying they'll have to leave the NLS on financial grounds if the decision is upheld! Iirc they also dug in a couple of years ago when they turned down promotion to step 4 after (I think) being placed in a division that didn't suit them.


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 11, 2019, 1:45 PM)


Atavistic
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Jun 11, 2019, 1:55 PM

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Post #352 of 532 (3833 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem for London Colney and Colney Heath is that, looking at the maps posted on Twitter, I simply can't see who would be more suitable to be moved over to the ESL instead. Hadley and Edgware Town have been brought up as the main possibilities on that front, but the latter have made it clear that they wouldn't be happy moving to the ESL either. So, whatever the FA do, this process is simply going to drag on and on unless two teams bite the bullet and accept the outcome. And that simply doesn't seem likely at the moment.



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agamemnon3
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Jun 11, 2019, 2:02 PM

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Post #353 of 532 (3811 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

'a division that didn't suit them'.
------------------------------------

There's more to it than that.

Certainly London Colney, after winning the Spartan, were expecting to go up into the Isthmian, and then found themselves placed in the Southern, but the main body of their committee had no intention of taking promotion anyway, no matter where they were placed.

This was kept back from the management and players until after the league was won, and resulted in most of them walking away when it became known.

Putting Colney aside, I do think that having an appeal upheld, but then being told that the status quo must remain, brings into question the integrity not only of the appeals process, but of the body conducting such process.


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 2:06 PM

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Post #354 of 532 (3804 views)
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Re: [Atavistic] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree. All that's happened is that a review of the original reallocation has resulted in it being deemed the most appropriate decision. Whilst I understand the crux of London Colney's argument is that the target market of their main sponsor is SSML territory, I can't believe that a move to Essex Senior should make the difference between surviving and leaving the NLS. Especially as everything will likely change again in a year's time with phase 2 of the NLS. restructuring.


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 2:10 PM

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Post #355 of 532 (3790 views)
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Re: [agamemnon3] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
'a division that didn't suit them'.
------------------------------------

There's more to it than that.

Certainly London Colney, after winning the Spartan, were expecting to go up into the Isthmian, and then found themselves placed in the Southern, but the main body of their committee had no intention of taking promotion anyway, no matter where they were placed.

This was kept back from the management and players until after the league was won, and resulted in most of them walking away when it became known.


Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that. Raises another question about integrity but that's water under the bridge!


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 2:32 PM

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Post #356 of 532 (3712 views)
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Re: [agamemnon3] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
Putting Colney aside, I do think that having an appeal upheld, but then being told that the status quo must remain, brings into question the integrity not only of the appeals process, but of the body conducting such process.


I'm inclined to question the reporting of the facts in this case, firstly the widely-reported "won" the 'appeal' and secondly to whom the 'appeal' was made.

Looking at the regulation over lateral moves, it appears that the two clubs have so far only presented their case to the LC subcommittee, and it's only now we're at the stage where an appeal can be lodged to the independent appeals committee.

Here's the process under the regs (lifted from the Essex Olympian website, bold bits made by me):
"It may be necessary from time to time to move Clubs laterally at the same Step. Each year the Committee will consider whether any lateral movements may be necessary at each Step; if so the Clubs likely to be affected shall be notified and given the opportunity to present a case if that Club does not wish to be moved laterally. The final decision shall rest with a sub-committee of the Committee. Any appeal shall be in accordance with the Regulations for Football Association Appeals. The decision of that appeal shall be final and binding subject only to Arbitration under FA Rule K."

[For interest's sake, the Reg goes on to mention the factors taken into account by the LC in making the lateral transfer:
"In coming to its decision the Committee will have regard to any representations made by any party, the distance to be travelled by any Club to be moved compared to the distance travelled in the Playing Season prior to movement; the financial impact on the Club to be moved, the frequency with which the Club has been moved in the past; the number of Clubs both in the division to which the Club is to be moved and in the division from which the Club is moved, and any other matter that it considers to be relevant."]


(This post was edited by paulh66 on Jun 11, 2019, 2:42 PM)


agamemnon3
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Jun 11, 2019, 3:11 PM

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Post #357 of 532 (3567 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I accept what you say, and what the regulations state, but it seems to me that this is not being made clear to the clubs thoroughly enough.

They think that if they 'win' an appeal against a decision, then it will be reversed, not that they may be deemed to have succeeded in their arguments but that nothing will change. Until this is made absolutely clear questions concerning integrity will arise.

Returning to London Colney's case, the regs mention the factors to be considered, including finances and distances.

Colney have already made a financial case, (whether one accepts it or not), but in terms of distance, the fact remains that Hadley is to the east of Colney, and thus closer to the ESL.

This is made moreso when considering that Colney tend to recruit their players from west of their base --- St Albans, Watford, Hemel Hempstead etc., whereas Hadley tend to recruit theirs from points east --- Barnet, Enfield etc. (Indeed, five of Hadley's current first team are ex-Cockfosters men).

Like it or not, London Colney have a case.


(This post was edited by agamemnon3 on Jun 11, 2019, 3:13 PM)


Richard Rundle
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Jun 11, 2019, 3:29 PM

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Post #358 of 532 (3485 views)
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Re: [agamemnon3] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The simplest idea would be to run one league with a couple of extra clubs for a season.

Is there really an independent appeals process, or are you just appealing to a subset of the original committee who made the decision under review?


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 3:42 PM

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Post #359 of 532 (3431 views)
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Re: [agamemnon3] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The club ought to have known exactly where it stood and there's no reason to believe this hasn't been properly communicated to them. Unfortunately the rest of us (but surely not the club itself) have to make do with ambiguous or garbled tweets about "winning an appeal" and further discussion with other clubs intended to lead to a fresh decision etc etc.

As for the lateral transfer itself, the point isn't so much about whether London Colney have a case at all but whether it is sufficiently compelling to say the reallocation was wrong, and how the case compares with the cases of other clubs who may be affected if it is overturned. Frankly, if they're genuinely deeply worried about it and not trying it on in any way, I'd stick them back in SSML and run with an extra club for a season. Either way, the independent appeal or final arbitration (whichever of these two stages we're at right now) should at least take all factors into account and ensure a fair outcome.


Unicorn
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Jun 11, 2019, 4:50 PM

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Post #360 of 532 (3166 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am sure that the Leagues committee and anyone connected to appeals is aware of the exact procedures.
But it must be obvious to them by now that not all the clubs do.
Then do need to communicate the technicalities of the rules /regulations to the clubs far better than they seem to be doing at the moment.


ramblingrover
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Jun 11, 2019, 4:52 PM

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Post #361 of 532 (3160 views)
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Re: [Karen Browne] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Outstanding appeals:

Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Appeal received, awaiting date
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Appeal Won
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - 17 June
Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Awaiting date
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Considering an appeal
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - 10 June
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - 12 June
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - 13 June

Didn't appeal:

Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal

Settled appeals:

Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - Successful
Chipping Sodbury Town - Successful
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Successful
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful

Updated with Glossop's rejected appeal. https://www.pitchero.com/...-appeal-2434081.html



Twitter reporting that although London Colney and Colney Heath won their appeals they are to remain in the Essex Senior League (both clubs have seven days to lodge further appeals)



Chipping Sodbury are Tweeting their appeal succeeded and they are in the Western League next season.

(This post was edited by ramblingrover on Jun 11, 2019, 4:55 PM)


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 5:08 PM

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Post #362 of 532 (3107 views)
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Re: [Unicorn] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I am sure that the Leagues committee and anyone connected to appeals is aware of the exact procedures.
But it must be obvious to them by now that not all the clubs do.
Then do need to communicate the technicalities of the rules /regulations to the clubs far better than they seem to be doing at the moment.


It took barely five minutes to look up and understand the rules governing this particular situation so it shouldn't be beyond the clubs themselves. Certainly no club that's actually gone through the process and dealt directly with the FA can have any excuse not to understand it (though I don't think London Colney are saying that anyway).

I agree, though, with the wider point that there is a disconnect between what the NLS Regs say and what clubs and the wider public think they say. The FA should probably be more proactive in bridging that gap. But communication works both ways, and it doesn't really help that the leagues themselves have different versions of the regs on their websites (one even had last year's badged as this year's!) and are consequently giving out misinformation.


Richard Rundle
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Jun 11, 2019, 5:12 PM

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Post #363 of 532 (3089 views)
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Re: [ramblingrover] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Chipping Sodbury are Tweeting their appeal succeeded and they are in the Western League next season.


That's going to open up a whole new can of worms. I can't see any other Western League club being more suitable to shift across to the Hellenic, and surely setting off a domino effect by moving Bridport (even if that was a good idea which I don't think it is) and then shifting possibly Fleet towards the Combined Counties or anything like that is surely too much too late now.

Perhaps the Western League will run with an extra club?


paulh66
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Jun 11, 2019, 5:21 PM

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Re: [Richard Rundle] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I did wonder if Frimley Green might be placed into the Hellenic to restore 20 clubs but they've just tweeted that they're confirmed as being in the Combined Counties Premier and that it'll run with 21 clubs.


Unicorn
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Post #365 of 532 (3041 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I agree, though, with the wider point that there is a disconnect between what the NLS Regs say and what clubs and the wider public think they say. The FA should probably be more proactive in bridging that gap. But communication works both ways, and it doesn't really help that the leagues themselves have different versions of the regs on their websites (one even had last year's badged as this year's!) and are consequently giving out misinformation.


Totally agree


AscotGuy
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Jun 11, 2019, 5:41 PM

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Post #366 of 532 (2978 views)
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Re: [paulh66] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I did wonder if Frimley Green might be placed into the Hellenic to restore 20 clubs but they've just tweeted that they're confirmed as being in the Combined Counties Premier and that it'll run with 21 clubs.


If they want to restore the balance, the simplest option would be to return Ascot to Hellenic from CC.

I hope not as Ascot are my local team and there are some local CC teams I would like to visit.


petermiller36
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Jun 11, 2019, 6:09 PM

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Post #367 of 532 (2877 views)
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Re: [AscotGuy] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Outstanding appeals:

Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Appeal received, awaiting date
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - 17 June
Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Awaiting date
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Appealing.... again
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Considering an appeal
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - 10 June
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - 12 June
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - 13 June

Didn't appeal:

Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal

Settled appeals:

Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Successful
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - No idea Pirate, but they're back in the Essex Senior... for now
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful



Steps 4-7 Relegation and Promotion document:
http://bit.ly/PPG1819


rac
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Jun 11, 2019, 6:31 PM

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Re: [petermiller36] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

any news on newark flowserves appeal


AscotGuy
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Jun 11, 2019, 7:17 PM

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Post #369 of 532 (2613 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Outstanding appeals:

Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Appeal received, awaiting date
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - 17 June
Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Awaiting date
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Appealing.... again
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Considering an appeal
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - 10 June
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - 12 June
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - 13 June

Didn't appeal:

Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal

Settled appeals:

Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Successful
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - No idea Pirate, but they're back in the Essex Senior... for now
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful


Pershore withdrawn appeal

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/sport/17699242.pershore-town-perform-u-turn-and-withdraw-hellenic-league-appeal/


simonsm
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Jun 11, 2019, 8:09 PM

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Post #370 of 532 (2438 views)
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Re: [AscotGuy] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
Have Page Celtic definitely appealed about their lateral Step 7 movement from West Cheshire League to Liverpool Premier League... if so, does anyone know what came of it?


windydcfc
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Jun 11, 2019, 8:16 PM

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Post #371 of 532 (2400 views)
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Re: [rac] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
any news on newark flowserves appeal



They’ve lost their appeal


windydcfc
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Post #372 of 532 (2396 views)
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Re: [AscotGuy] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Outstanding appeals:

Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Appeal received, awaiting date
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - 17 June
Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Awaiting date
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Appealing.... again
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Considering an appeal
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - 10 June
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - 12 June
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - 13 June

Didn't appeal:

Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal

Settled appeals:

Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Successful
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - No idea Pirate, but they're back in the Essex Senior... for now
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful


Pershore withdrawn appeal

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/...lenic-league-appeal/


alderman friend
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Jun 11, 2019, 8:27 PM

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Post #373 of 532 (2354 views)
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Re: [windydcfc] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

so after the F A have sorted the appeals out will they move teams around to ensure all level 5 league have 20 teams in or leave some leagues with odd numbers.


siramisp
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Jun 11, 2019, 9:01 PM

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Re: [alderman friend] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

OUTSTANDING APPEALS
Barkingside - relegation from Step 5 - Appeal received, awaiting date
Codicote - relegation from Step 6 - 17 June
Kings Langley - placement in Southern Premier Central - Awaiting date
London Colney - placement in Essex Senior - Appealing.... again
Met Police - placement in Southern Premier South - Considering an appeal
Staplehurst Monarchs United - non promotion from Step 7 - 13 June

NONE APPEALS
Barking - placement in Isthmian 1 South Central - Withdrawn appeal
Chard Town - demotion from Step 6 - Did Not Appeal
Pershore Town - placement in WMRL - Withdrawn

SETTLED APPEALS
Buckhurst Hill - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Chipping Sodbury Town - placement in Hellenic Premier - Successful
Colney Heath - placement in Essex Senior - No idea , but they're back in the Essex Senior... for now
Cove - relegation from Step 6 - Successful
Darlaston Town - non-champions of WMRL1 - Rejected
Frimley Green - non promotion from Step 6 - Successful
Gateshead - suspension from National League - Relegated to National League North
Glossop North End - placement in Northern Premier 1SE - Rejected
Harleston Town - non promotion and relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Harworth Colliery - relegation from Step 6 - Rejected
Newark Flowserve - placement in Midland Premier - Rejected
Ollerton Town - placement in NCEL 1 - Rejected
Peckham Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Rejected
Stonehouse Town - non promotion from Step 7 - Successful


leohoenig
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Jun 11, 2019, 9:03 PM

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Re: [alderman friend] Appeals - Summer 2019 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I would have though Aylesbury Vale could now move to the Hellenic to remove the need to play Colney teams in Essex



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