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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Ronsdog
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Aug 29, 2019, 4:49 PM

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Post #4251 of 4292 (1000 views)
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     Re: [MelChester] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


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I simply voted to leave.....

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!

......... but no deal is not an acceptable outcome.


Perfectly acceptable in my opinion and I would contend that among the 34% of all voters who share my view would include a number of those that voted to remain.

The nations voters, be they remain or leave, are thoroughly sick of our parliamentarians who voted in favour of enacting Article 50 and now obfuscate and delay at every turn in ensuring we leave.

Many will rue their hypocritical stance at the next election.


Yatesman
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Aug 29, 2019, 7:08 PM

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Post #4252 of 4292 (962 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


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If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.


The only way Johnson has found is his million to one undemocratic No Deal Brexit.

We are a parliamentary democracy and Parliament does not want it. And for what it's worth the electorate doesn't want it either.

Johnson knows the democratic game is up and is willing to inflict untold damage on the UK to get his way.


Not to get his way, to get what 17.4million people voted for in the referendum.


We are a parliamentary democracy, not a populist one.

Didn't you know?

As Ruth Davidson said today

Ďreferenda should be used to affirm public opinion but not as a way for political leaders to fail to leadí



The reason that you are struggling to assert this point is that the UK may well be a Parliamentary Democracy ( PD for the rest of this post) but it's not a PD where the MP's ride roughshod over the express, legal and democratically enshrined instruction from the electorate but a PD where the MP's honour democratic elections, a PD where the MP's respect the democratic will of the people and a PD where MP's do NOT use disingenuity , obsfucation and legislative misdemeanors to enshrine a political agenda and a political dogma in direct pposition to the legal, fair and express decision of a national plebiscite.

That's the battle we are fighting and it's why you can't and won't win.


PaulC
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Aug 29, 2019, 7:29 PM

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Post #4253 of 4292 (953 views)
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Oh ,for goodness sake, you don't pick and choose when we are a PD.

We are. Period.

Quite rightly, the referendum was advisory. There's another fact for you.

I look forward to the day the next Labour PM chooses to close down Parliament to get his way.


Yatesman
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Aug 29, 2019, 8:02 PM

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Post #4254 of 4292 (947 views)
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Oh ,for goodness sake, you don't pick and choose when we are a PD.

We are. Period.

Quite rightly, the referendum was advisory. There's another fact for you.

I look forward to the day the next Labour PM chooses to close down Parliament to get his way.


it's the 'Period' bit that's the problem.

I don't stop at 'Period' for all the reasons I listed above .

And yes, I do get to define what is 'OUR' PD.

And No, the referendum was not advisory and I know because every political leader and representative told us so at the time, since andleaving the EU is enshrined in law, as voted for by our Parliamentarians ( Y'know, PD and all that ?)


PaulC
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Aug 30, 2019, 8:51 AM

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Post #4255 of 4292 (858 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Yatesman. You have a very unfortunate habit of denying facts. It does absolutely nothing for the credibility of your case,


"The referendum is advisoryĒ
David Lidington, Minister for Europe. The minister who guided the referendum legislation through the Commons.


PaulC
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Aug 30, 2019, 10:26 AM

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Post #4256 of 4292 (839 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Gordon Brown reckons the EU will delay the 31 Oct deadline, thus permitting full Parliamentary scrutiny.


Isaac
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Aug 30, 2019, 2:24 PM

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Post #4257 of 4292 (777 views)
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Oh ,for goodness sake, you don't pick and choose when we are a PD.

We are. Period.

Quite rightly, the referendum was advisory. There's another fact for you.

I look forward to the day the next Labour PM chooses to close down Parliament to get his way.


Are you still perpetrating this myth about the referendum being 'advisory'?

Imagine the vote had gone the other way and it was announced "it was only advisory so we've decided to ignore it and leave anyway"!


prorege
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Aug 30, 2019, 3:50 PM

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Post #4258 of 4292 (744 views)
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     Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Referendums in the UK are advisory. They are known as pre-legislative or consultative referendums.

The reason why they are not binding is to allow Parliament to consider the issue in the light of the referendum result, taking into account the veracity of the referendum campaigns, the clarity of the issues involved and the methods by which the campaigns and the referendum itself were conducted. If a Government has a strong majority then they may be able to push through the result of a referendum regardless Ė but in this instance that was never going to happen. The size of their majority was too few and the Government party was split on the issue in the first place.

Iíd say the EU Referendum failed on all of those counts of scrutiny described above. Most importantly the Leave Campaign argued that negotiating an exit deal would be easy and advantageous to the UK. Promises and threats were bandied about with impunity by both sides because nobody actually knew what the outcome of leaving the EU would be. Less importantly but still significantly, campaign spending rules were breached.

The biggest mistake lay with those who allowed the referendum to take place when it did. This should always have been a two-stage referendum Ė stage 1 do you, in principle want to leave the EU? Ė stage 2 hereís the negotiated deal, do you still want to leave the EU?

The fact that it wasnít constructed this way leaves us in the mess we are in now. MPs are quite right and perfectly entitled to have their say on the deal rather than implementing the outcome of what I would call a ďblind referendumĒ, where people did not know the detail of the issue. Contrast that with the Scottish Independence Referendum when we all got a 500 page document describing in detail every conceivable aspect of how a post-independence Scotland would work and its relationships with its partners.

On that basis the Scottish Independence referendum result passed the tests and there was no will to overturn or delay its outcome. Subsequent events and material changes may or may not, depending on your opinion, merit another referendum on this issue.


Yatesman
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Aug 30, 2019, 6:48 PM

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Post #4259 of 4292 (697 views)
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Yatesman. You have a very unfortunate habit of denying facts. It does absolutely nothing for the credibility of your case,


"The referendum is advisoryĒ
David Lidington, Minister for Europe. The minister who guided the referendum legislation through the Commons.


Referendums are advisory in the UK in the sense that if a referendum is held tomorrow it would be advisory, however, the 2016 referendum differed the minute the Prime Minister and both campaigns agreed the outcome would be honoured and you know full well that is what I refer to and why I never say Referendums per se aren't advisory but only that this referendum wasn't advisory.

It's because we were told by the PM and others that our vote would count and that the result would be honoured that so many people who don't typically vote in elections took part in this one.

So No, the 2016 Referendum was NEVER advisory ; not for a single second from it's conception to it's completion.


PaulC
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Aug 30, 2019, 6:56 PM

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Post #4260 of 4292 (694 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Politicians can say what they like. Often, as with Boris Johnson, they lie more than they tell the truth.

You mentioned the legality of the referendum. Legally it was advisory. And thatís a fact.


Tykeoldboy
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Aug 30, 2019, 8:48 PM

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Post #4261 of 4292 (662 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

I don't think anything the PM or the government say is legally binding until it passes both houses and added to the statute book. MP's offer gold during run up to an election but deliver plastic once in power



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Yatesman
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Aug 30, 2019, 9:48 PM

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Post #4262 of 4292 (637 views)
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I don't think anything the PM or the government say is legally binding until it passes both houses and added to the statute book. MP's offer gold during run up to an election but deliver plastic once in power


I can't argue with that!


Yatesman
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Aug 30, 2019, 9:57 PM

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Post #4263 of 4292 (632 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


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Politicians can say what they like. Often, as with Boris Johnson, they lie more than they tell the truth.

You mentioned the legality of the referendum. Legally it was advisory. And thatís a fact.


This isn't about Boris Johnson and you're being pedantic.

Real life is a bit more faceted and undulating than pedants are able to negotiate.

It's impossible to reason or debate with pedants!


PaulC
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Aug 30, 2019, 10:06 PM

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Post #4264 of 4292 (620 views)
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Politicians can say what they like. Often, as with Boris Johnson, they lie more than they tell the truth.

You mentioned the legality of the referendum. Legally it was advisory. And thatís a fact.


This isn't about Boris Johnson and you're being pedantic.

Real life is a bit more faceted and undulating than pedants are able to negotiate.

It's impossible to reason or debate with pedants!


Aye, facts are a real pain for Brexiteers.


PaulC
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Aug 30, 2019, 10:35 PM

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Post #4265 of 4292 (603 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Eddie Mair, with help from Billy Joel, outlining the sheer hypocrisy of Johnsonís Brexit ministers.https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1167528494303252480?s=21[=url]


Yatesman
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Aug 31, 2019, 12:42 PM

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Politicians can say what they like. Often, as with Boris Johnson, they lie more than they tell the truth.

You mentioned the legality of the referendum. Legally it was advisory. And thatís a fact.


This isn't about Boris Johnson and you're being pedantic.

Real life is a bit more faceted and undulating than pedants are able to negotiate.

It's impossible to reason or debate with pedants!


Aye, facts are a real pain for Brexiteers.


Ha ha, hilarious ......^^^ This coming from the guy who strugges with facts AND Maths..........eg.

Maths-----52%-48% ............52 is a higher sum than 48

Fact------Leave won the referendum

Glad to help!


Yatesman
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Aug 31, 2019, 12:43 PM

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Eddie Mair, with help from Billy Joel, outlining the sheer hypocrisy of Johnsonís Brexit ministers.https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1167528494303252480?s=21[=url][/reply]

Not bothered to look at the link but Democracy by lefty comedians, twitter, memes and social media is NOT the future of politics , sonny jim!


PaulC
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Aug 31, 2019, 1:01 PM

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Politicians can say what they like. Often, as with Boris Johnson, they lie more than they tell the truth.

You mentioned the legality of the referendum. Legally it was advisory. And thatís a fact.


This isn't about Boris Johnson and you're being pedantic.

Real life is a bit more faceted and undulating than pedants are able to negotiate.

It's impossible to reason or debate with pedants!


Aye, facts are a real pain for Brexiteers.


Ha ha, hilarious ......^^^ This coming from the guy who strugges with facts AND Maths..........eg.

Maths-----52%-48% ............52 is a higher sum than 48

Fact------Leave won the referendum

Glad to help!


When did I ever claim Leave didnít win the referendum three and a half years and three PMs ago?

Is this another of your Brexit fantasies? You canít just make stuff up and claim itís true even if that is what those who led Brexiteers by the nose did and still do.


steveking
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Aug 31, 2019, 1:04 PM

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Post #4269 of 4292 (500 views)
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Comedian? Isn't Eddie Mair a respected broadcaster?


PaulC
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Aug 31, 2019, 1:04 PM

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Post #4270 of 4292 (500 views)
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Eddie Mair, with help from Billy Joel, outlining the sheer hypocrisy of Johnsonís Brexit ministers.

https://twitter.com/...528494303252480?s=21


Not bothered to look at the link but Democracy by lefty comedians, twitter, memes and social media is NOT the future of politics , sonny jim!


Eddie Mair doesnít come into any of those categories.

It is a common trait amongst Brexiteers to bury their heads in the sound lest they see or hear the truth or pesky facts.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Aug 31, 2019, 1:42 PM)


PaulC
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Aug 31, 2019, 1:44 PM

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Post #4271 of 4292 (492 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

You can fool some people all of the time, but Johnson and his cronies have only managed to fool 13% with this one.




Yatesman
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Aug 31, 2019, 3:00 PM

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Post #4272 of 4292 (478 views)
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You can fool some people all of the time, but Johnson and his cronies have only managed to fool 13% with this one.




The vast majority of Leavers support what he is doing , I suspect, and dont have a problem with this course of action.
Why would they?
It's perfectly legal and perfectly constitutional.

Your bar graph mirrors the ratio of people who actually believe Remainers' claims of only wanting to stop No Deal and the belief that their true , disingenuous motive is to actually stop Brexit.


PaulC
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Aug 31, 2019, 4:12 PM

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Post #4273 of 4292 (466 views)
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I realise Brexiteers don't do evidence, but do you have any evidence for that claim?


kirby knitters
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Aug 31, 2019, 7:31 PM

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Post #4274 of 4292 (436 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Still awaiting a reply from you regarding evidence that Scotland would now be an independent nation if it wasn't for the English residents that voted against it. Luckily im not holding my breath as it goes back six months!


PaulC
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Aug 31, 2019, 7:38 PM

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Post #4275 of 4292 (430 views)
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Still awaiting a reply from you regarding evidence that Scotland would now be an independent nation if it wasn't for the English residents that voted against it. Luckily im not holding my breath as it goes back six months!


Really? Iím sure I provided it. Sorry youíve been waiting so long.

Iím sure whst said was the majority of Scots born voted for independence.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/...said-yes-z7v2mmhc8nt

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