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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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007Dale
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Aug 28, 2019, 2:42 PM

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Post #4226 of 4292 (895 views)
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     Re: [Mr. T] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Personally I support any tactic to deliver Brexit.

The outrage is that Parliament has thwarted the will of the people twice (Eu ref and 2017 General election where 80% of MP’s were elected on a promise to deliver Brexit).

The country will judge Boris on his actions at the General Election. Once this faux outrage has died-down, I suspect he’ll sweep to power again.

If i’m Wrong, the voters will get the chance to punish him and put Corbyn in number 10.


MelChester
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Aug 28, 2019, 3:32 PM

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Post #4227 of 4292 (866 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

The Brexit people voted for or were told they would get, not this version. Probably less than 15% of the eligible vote in 2016 wanted a no deal. A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


007Dale
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Aug 28, 2019, 3:39 PM

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Post #4228 of 4292 (864 views)
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     Re: [MelChester] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Brexit people voted for or were told they would get, not this version. Probably less than 15% of the eligible vote in 2016 wanted a no deal. A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


Out of interest, how do you know this?


Ronsdog
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Aug 28, 2019, 4:42 PM

Posts: 2669
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Post #4229 of 4292 (828 views)
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     Re: [MelChester] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


It may be your opinion Mel, but I have yet to see any evidence that backs up such an assertion.

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


(This post was edited by Ronsdog on Aug 28, 2019, 4:45 PM)


PaulC
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Aug 28, 2019, 4:49 PM

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Post #4230 of 4292 (818 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


Ronsdog
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Aug 28, 2019, 5:09 PM

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Post #4231 of 4292 (811 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


PaulC
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Aug 28, 2019, 5:24 PM

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Post #4232 of 4292 (800 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


One third <45% <one half.


66% do not want a No Deal Brexit.

66% > one half

HTH

No Deal Brexit is not wanted by the vast majority of voters.
HTH


PaulC
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Aug 28, 2019, 5:47 PM

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Post #4233 of 4292 (787 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Ruth Davidson is set to resign as Scottish branch manager. of the Tory Party.

She can't stand Johnson.

Scottish Tories on here will be distraught.


Yatesman
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Aug 28, 2019, 8:09 PM

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Post #4234 of 4292 (748 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


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In Reply To
Johnson is planning to suspend our Parliament from mid-September to mid-October in order to push through a No Deal Brexit we don't want.

And Brexiteers talk about democracy!!


All very dramatic wording, but all he’s doing is announcing a Queen’s speech. We have had an extraordinarily long session and as a new Prime Minister he has a domestic agenda he wants to deliver.

Of course, the added bonus is that it stops the ‘Axis of Remain’ from preventing a no-deal Brexit.

Purely coincidental benefit.

Honest.



Fair play to Boris.

As you say, a perfectly reasonable course of action given the fact that:

a) He needs to set out his programme for Government.

b) The determination of Parliament to thwart the will of the people.

Parliament has had 3 years to deliver Brexit and has proven themselves wholly incapable.
Their time is up and Boris is delivering on his promises to the people.

I'm warming to the man!


(This post was edited by Yatesman on Aug 28, 2019, 8:10 PM)


Yatesman
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Aug 28, 2019, 8:13 PM

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Post #4235 of 4292 (744 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


It may be your opinion Mel, but I have yet to see any evidence that backs up such an assertion.

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You're not.

No deal is the favoured outcome if we are adequately prepared.

Boris has moved us further along that path in 5 weeks than May did in her whole Premiership.

No Deal is far preferable than a bad deal!


Yatesman
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Aug 29, 2019, 7:06 AM

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Post #4236 of 4292 (669 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Ruth Davidson is set to resign as Scottish branch manager. of the Tory Party.

She can't stand Johnson.

Scottish Tories on here will be distraught.


She's not been 'into it' since returning from maternity leave.

Wouldn't hold it against her if she did step down to spend more time with her family.

Sturgeon will be relieved. Davidson has been a thorn in the side of the Scottish Branch of The National Socialist Party.


PaulC
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Aug 29, 2019, 8:04 AM

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Post #4237 of 4292 (659 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
The Brexit people voted for or were told they would get, not this version. Probably less than 15% of the eligible vote in 2016 wanted a no deal. A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


Out of interest, how do you know this?


“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey....Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence.”"
Michael Gove

Anyone who thought they were voting for No Deal was clearly mistaken. Clearly a common problem amongst Brexiteers.


PaulC
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Aug 29, 2019, 8:25 AM

Posts: 11675
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Post #4238 of 4292 (651 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Ruth Davidson is set to resign as Scottish branch manager. of the Tory Party.

She can't stand Johnson.

Scottish Tories on here will be distraught.


She's not been 'into it' since returning from maternity leave.

Wouldn't hold it against her if she did step down to spend more time with her family.

Sturgeon will be relieved. Davidson has been a thorn in the side of the Scottish Branch of The National Socialist Party.


Ruth Davidson highlights:

On hearing the news that Johnson was standing down at the previous leadership election, having been stabbed in the back by Gove.

https://twitter.com/.../1166808558127783937

On the lies and liars of the Leave campaign

https://twitter.com/.../1143638378472247297


007Dale
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Aug 29, 2019, 8:29 AM

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Post #4239 of 4292 (648 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The Brexit people voted for or were told they would get, not this version. Probably less than 15% of the eligible vote in 2016 wanted a no deal. A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


Out of interest, how do you know this?


“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey....Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence.”"
Michael Gove

Anyone who thought they were voting for No Deal was clearly mistaken. Clearly a common problem amongst Brexiteers.


I guess we’ll only know if people are happy with ‘no deal’ at the autumn General Election. Suspect BoJo will get more than 15% of the vote though.


MelChester
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Aug 29, 2019, 9:57 AM

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Post #4240 of 4292 (624 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
The Brexit people voted for or were told they would get, not this version. Probably less than 15% of the eligible vote in 2016 wanted a no deal. A no deal is actually betraying the vote of the majority who voted for Brexit.


Out of interest, how do you know this?


“But we didn’t vote to leave without a deal. That wasn’t the message of the campaign I helped lead. During that campaign, we said we should do a deal with the EU and be part of the network of free trade deals that covers all Europe, from Iceland to Turkey....Leaving without a deal on March 29 would not honour that commitment. It would undoubtedly cause economic turbulence.”"
Michael Gove

Anyone who thought they were voting for No Deal was clearly mistaken. Clearly a common problem amongst Brexiteers.


I guess we’ll only know if people are happy with ‘no deal’ at the autumn General Election. Suspect BoJo will get more than 15% of the vote though.


Boris won't get more than 15% of the vote, the Tories will. Unless all parties start making pacts with others it will be a hung Parliament. Boris is very popular with some but very unpopular with many.


steveking
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Aug 29, 2019, 10:11 AM

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Post #4241 of 4292 (615 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I guess we’ll only know if people are happy with ‘no deal’ at the autumn General Election. Suspect BoJo will get more than 15% of the vote though.

I suspect once it's done and dusted that people will vote in the GE on a whole range of issues related to their view of the future rather than what's passed.


(This post was edited by steveking on Aug 29, 2019, 10:12 AM)


Ronsdog
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Aug 29, 2019, 10:13 AM

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Post #4242 of 4292 (614 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


One third <45% <one half.


66% do not want a No Deal Brexit.

66% > one half

HTH

No Deal Brexit is not wanted by the vast majority of voters.
HTH


Considerably more, in fact double the amount that the 15% Melchester asserted.


MelChester
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Aug 29, 2019, 11:44 AM

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Post #4243 of 4292 (590 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


One third <45% <one half.


66% do not want a No Deal Brexit.

66% > one half

HTH

No Deal Brexit is not wanted by the vast majority of voters.
HTH


Considerably more, in fact double the amount that the 15% Melchester asserted.


I actually said probably no more than 15% of the eligible voters at the time of the 2016 referendum voted for no deal. Many voted for a soft Brexit, others voted for hard Brexit, some Inbetween. This is the whole problem there are so many different view points and type of Brexit (or remain) people want. The biggest percentage is remain, those who want Brexit or No Deal are just the rest and each particular section of Brexit or No Deal will never be higher than remain. Not matter how you dress the figures there will never be a majority for No Deal because Remain is always going to be a larger percentage and Remain plus soft Brexit even more. If you then add in the percentage of those who did not voted and the 16 to 18 year old the percentage of those want a No Deal is very small in relation to the actually population and in some remain areas is so small probably less than 5%. If the Conservatives are not careful they will completely fragment not only the UK but also England. The whole political landscape will change but if that means both the extreme right and left wings are wiped out the UK will be a better place.


007Dale
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Aug 29, 2019, 1:30 PM

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Post #4244 of 4292 (558 views)
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     Re: [MelChester] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


One third <45% <one half.


66% do not want a No Deal Brexit.

66% > one half

HTH

No Deal Brexit is not wanted by the vast majority of voters.
HTH


Considerably more, in fact double the amount that the 15% Melchester asserted.


I actually said probably no more than 15% of the eligible voters at the time of the 2016 referendum voted for no deal. Many voted for a soft Brexit, others voted for hard Brexit, some Inbetween. This is the whole problem there are so many different view points and type of Brexit (or remain) people want. The biggest percentage is remain, those who want Brexit or No Deal are just the rest and each particular section of Brexit or No Deal will never be higher than remain. Not matter how you dress the figures there will never be a majority for No Deal because Remain is always going to be a larger percentage and Remain plus soft Brexit even more. If you then add in the percentage of those who did not voted and the 16 to 18 year old the percentage of those want a No Deal is very small in relation to the actually population and in some remain areas is so small probably less than 5%. If the Conservatives are not careful they will completely fragment not only the UK but also England. The whole political landscape will change but if that means both the extreme right and left wings are wiped out the UK will be a better place.


What utter twaddle.

Not sure what point this post was trying to make, but whatever it was, it failed.

Let me remind you of a few facts;
1. 52% of those that voted in 2016 referendum wanted Leave. We don’t know what sort of leave they wanted, but they wanted to leave.
2. In 2017, the Tories and Labour won the vast majority of seats at the General Election, on the promise they would deliver Brexit. Remain parties (SNP + PC + LD) actually lost seats overall in that election.
3. This year, the ‘no deal’ Brexit party & UKIP picked up 34% of the votes in the Euro Elections. Hard Remain parties (LD, SNP, Green) picked up 35%. In the middle of that are the Tory and Labour voters who will be a mix of ‘hard brexit’, ‘soft brexit’ and ‘remain’.
4. Our Parliament has tried and failed to pass the Brexit deal. The EU has said it won’t change the deal. Full stop. Our Parliament has also failed to come to a majority on anything positive, consistently telling us what it doesn’t want. The EU won’t change the deal anyway.

If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.

I’m not sure many people will want this brexit fiasco to carry on indefinitely. Parliament had its chance, it failed.

Let’s deliver and get on with the rest of our lives.


Part-Timer
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Aug 29, 2019, 2:31 PM

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Post #4245 of 4292 (534 views)
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     Re: [steveking] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I guess we’ll only know if people are happy with ‘no deal’ at the autumn General Election. Suspect BoJo will get more than 15% of the vote though.

I suspect once it's done and dusted that people will vote in the GE on a whole range of issues related to their view of the future rather than what's passed.

I believe you are right, although it won't stop the winner claiming that the vote is an endorsement of their Brexit policy.


PaulC
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Aug 29, 2019, 3:16 PM

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Post #4246 of 4292 (511 views)
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     Re: [007Dale] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.


The only way Johnson has found is his million to one undemocratic No Deal Brexit.

We are a parliamentary democracy and Parliament does not want it. And for what it's worth the electorate doesn't want it either.

Johnson knows the democratic game is up and is willing to inflict untold damage on the UK to get his way.


Isaac
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Aug 29, 2019, 3:50 PM

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Post #4247 of 4292 (496 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.


The only way Johnson has found is his million to one undemocratic No Deal Brexit.

We are a parliamentary democracy and Parliament does not want it. And for what it's worth the electorate doesn't want it either.

Johnson knows the democratic game is up and is willing to inflict untold damage on the UK to get his way.


Not to get his way, to get what 17.4million people voted for in the referendum.


Chris1963
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Aug 29, 2019, 4:11 PM

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Post #4248 of 4292 (493 views)
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     Re: [Isaac] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Just a thought, if the UK does leave the EU, it could rejoin at some point in the future (assuming any future referendum results in a 'yes' vote) and if so, the UK will have to commit to ditching the pound and joining the euro. So the Remainers may have the last laugh in the end!


PaulC
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Aug 29, 2019, 4:15 PM

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Post #4249 of 4292 (485 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.


The only way Johnson has found is his million to one undemocratic No Deal Brexit.

We are a parliamentary democracy and Parliament does not want it. And for what it's worth the electorate doesn't want it either.

Johnson knows the democratic game is up and is willing to inflict untold damage on the UK to get his way.


Not to get his way, to get what 17.4million people voted for in the referendum.


We are a parliamentary democracy, not a populist one.

Didn't you know?

As Ruth Davidson said today

‘referenda should be used to affirm public opinion but not as a way for political leaders to fail to lead’


(This post was edited by PaulC on Aug 29, 2019, 4:17 PM)


MelChester
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Aug 29, 2019, 4:24 PM

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Post #4250 of 4292 (481 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

I simply voted to leave.....as long as we depart, by whatever means then I shall be a contented voter.

Furthermore from discussions with other Leavers I have no reason to believe I'm unique in that respect.Tongue


You need a wider circle of acquaintances then:

"Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary"
19 August The Independent


ONLY A THIRD OF ALL VOTERS THEN !!!!!!!!


Maths never was your strong subject Tongue


One third <45% <one half.


66% do not want a No Deal Brexit.

66% > one half

HTH

No Deal Brexit is not wanted by the vast majority of voters.
HTH


Considerably more, in fact double the amount that the 15% Melchester asserted.


I actually said probably no more than 15% of the eligible voters at the time of the 2016 referendum voted for no deal. Many voted for a soft Brexit, others voted for hard Brexit, some Inbetween. This is the whole problem there are so many different view points and type of Brexit (or remain) people want. The biggest percentage is remain, those who want Brexit or No Deal are just the rest and each particular section of Brexit or No Deal will never be higher than remain. Not matter how you dress the figures there will never be a majority for No Deal because Remain is always going to be a larger percentage and Remain plus soft Brexit even more. If you then add in the percentage of those who did not voted and the 16 to 18 year old the percentage of those want a No Deal is very small in relation to the actually population and in some remain areas is so small probably less than 5%. If the Conservatives are not careful they will completely fragment not only the UK but also England. The whole political landscape will change but if that means both the extreme right and left wings are wiped out the UK will be a better place.


What utter twaddle.

Not sure what point this post was trying to make, but whatever it was, it failed.

Let me remind you of a few facts;
1. 52% of those that voted in 2016 referendum wanted Leave. We don’t know what sort of leave they wanted, but they wanted to leave.
2. In 2017, the Tories and Labour won the vast majority of seats at the General Election, on the promise they would deliver Brexit. Remain parties (SNP + PC + LD) actually lost seats overall in that election.
3. This year, the ‘no deal’ Brexit party & UKIP picked up 34% of the votes in the Euro Elections. Hard Remain parties (LD, SNP, Green) picked up 35%. In the middle of that are the Tory and Labour voters who will be a mix of ‘hard brexit’, ‘soft brexit’ and ‘remain’.
4. Our Parliament has tried and failed to pass the Brexit deal. The EU has said it won’t change the deal. Full stop. Our Parliament has also failed to come to a majority on anything positive, consistently telling us what it doesn’t want. The EU won’t change the deal anyway.

If we are to honour the results of the 2016 Referendum and 2017 General Election, Boris may have found a way.

I’m not sure many people will want this brexit fiasco to carry on indefinitely. Parliament had its chance, it failed.

Let’s deliver and get on with the rest of our lives.


No because there is not a majority for a no deal, there never will be. All the other figures are historic, at this point in time more people want to remain than want a no deal. It's that simply. In this case the 2016 figures are not relevant, the only acceptable outcome is a soft to medium Brexit but because there are so many vested interests nothing will get passed, but no deal is not an acceptable outcome.

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