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EU Withdrawal Negotiations

 

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Yatesman
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Jul 27, 2019, 10:47 AM

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Post #4026 of 4292 (1083 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Yes, We'll be Free........What a wonderful thought .

And just think, any EU regulations that we like we can replicate and any we don't we can forget.

Sounds Awesome.

I must admit, the list of amazing benefits of EU membership, like taking pets on holiday abroad, are just fluff and nonsense, some of the others, as I say, will find it's way in to British Law ( remember that concept?) and so your concerns are petty and unfounded and your focus should be on ensuring your favourite EU directives are retained post Brexit rather than thwarting democracy.


PaulC
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Jul 27, 2019, 10:52 AM

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Post #4027 of 4292 (1080 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes, We'll be Free........What a wonderful thought .

And just think, any EU regulations that we like we can replicate and any we don't we can forget.


Who is "We"?

The right wing nut jobs now in government?


Yatesman
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Jul 27, 2019, 10:56 AM

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Post #4028 of 4292 (1074 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Yes, We'll be Free........What a wonderful thought .

And just think, any EU regulations that we like we can replicate and any we don't we can forget.


Who is "We"?

The right wing nut jobs now in government?


We, Lakota , The People .


Ronsdog
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Jul 27, 2019, 11:22 AM

Posts: 2665
Location: Sarf London
Team(s): Lowestoft Town, Crystal Palace

Post #4029 of 4292 (1055 views)
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     Re: [PaulC] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
.


The right wing nut jobs now in government?


"Right wing nut jobs"
Would you care to explain what you mean by that phrase?


Yatesman
First Team Regular

Jul 27, 2019, 12:26 PM

Posts: 1377
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Post #4030 of 4292 (1033 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
.


The right wing nut jobs now in government?


"Right wing nut jobs"
Would you care to explain what you mean by that phrase?


Good shout!

Can't wait for this reply!


jon b
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Jul 27, 2019, 9:23 PM

Posts: 2963
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Post #4031 of 4292 (942 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Margot James has described Johnson's Cabinet as a "massive shift to the right". James presumably knows what she is talking about seeing as she is the Conservative MP for Stourbridge.

It may be relevant in this context that four of the five authors of "Britannia Unchained" are now in the Cabinet.

That was the work that seemed very keen on fewer employment laws and workers rights and learning from the examples of the "tiger economies" like China and Singapore.

It was notorious for a passage that stated that "the British are among the worst idlers in the world".

.


Yatesman
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Jul 27, 2019, 10:16 PM

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Post #4032 of 4292 (925 views)
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     Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Margot James has described Johnson's Cabinet as a "massive shift to the right". James presumably knows what she is talking about seeing as she is the Conservative MP for Stourbridge.

It may be relevant in this context that four of the five authors of "Britannia Unchained" are now in the Cabinet.

That was the work that seemed very keen on fewer employment laws and workers rights and learning from the examples of the "tiger economies" like China and Singapore.

It was notorious for a passage that stated that "the British are among the worst idlers in the world".

.


I don't buy in to the notion that being right wing is tantamount to being a nut job.........If anything the reverse is more likely.

Exactly which employment laws and which workers' rights were they wanting to ditch ?

My impression is that ,outside of general law, and unless you are working for the Gov't ( Teacher, NHS , Local Authority etc) there aren't many workers' rights worth shouting about , not in these days of short term and zero hour contracts.


kirby knitters
Qatar World Cup bid member!

Jul 27, 2019, 10:28 PM

Posts: 17865
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Post #4033 of 4292 (921 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
.


The right wing nut jobs now in government?


"Right wing nut jobs"
Would you care to explain what you mean by that phrase?

Member of these "Right wing nut jobs" now in Government. Priti thick skinned so not offended by such silly jibes in any way. Wink


jon b
First Team Star

Jul 28, 2019, 12:34 AM

Posts: 2963
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Post #4034 of 4292 (879 views)
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     Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Priti thick skinned so not offended by such silly jibes in any way. Wink


She'll need that thick skin in the Home Office.

Generally a lousy job.

Her grin in the HofC alongside Boris the other day, went rigid when Jezza mentioned her previous support of capital punishment.

.


Towlawtom
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Jul 28, 2019, 11:43 AM

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Post #4035 of 4292 (792 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Yes, We'll be Free........What a wonderful thought .

And just think, any EU regulations that we like we can replicate and any we don't we can forget.

Sounds Awesome.

I must admit, the list of amazing benefits of EU membership, like taking pets on holiday abroad, are just fluff and nonsense, some of the others, as I say, will find it's way in to British Law ( remember that concept?) and so your concerns are petty and unfounded and your focus should be on ensuring your favourite EU directives are retained post Brexit rather than thwarting democracy.


The point is many of those laws we only get the benefit from whilst remaining in the EU. If we leave they will no longer apply to us.


Others in that list we opposed that we had to comply with so they will presumably be reversed, like better animal welfare checks and ensuring compensation for delayed flight passengers.

You have to raise the question why we have opposed the majority of EU laws enforced on us including both the above as just 2 examples.



I need to have the last word, as it always looks as if I am right !

(This post was edited by Towlawtom on Jul 28, 2019, 11:46 AM)


kirby knitters
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Jul 28, 2019, 12:34 PM

Posts: 17865
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Post #4036 of 4292 (760 views)
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     Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
Priti thick skinned so not offended by such silly jibes in any way. Wink


She'll need that thick skin in the Home Office.

Generally a lousy job.

Her grin in the HofC alongside Boris the other day, went rigid when Jezza mentioned her previous support of capital punishment.

.

And his support of murderous regimes is swept under the carpet. His problem with Patel is that she is a friend of the Israelis but he can hardly mention that one in the current climate.


jon b
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Jul 28, 2019, 1:43 PM

Posts: 2963
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Post #4037 of 4292 (736 views)
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     Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

 


In Reply To
And his support of murderous regimes is swept under the carpet. His problem with Patel is that she is a friend of the Israelis but he can hardly mention that one in the current climate.


Who sweeps it under the carpet?

It's regularly raised by the Tory press. Seemingly, and surprisingly to you and me, to little effect.

Maybe it's because when issues such as Corbyn's support in the past for the IRA is raised, the reaction of younger generations seems to be "who are they?" or worse "who were they?".

Patel's problem wasn't her sympathy for the Israelis but acting behind the back of the Foreign Office and then lying about it when questioned by the then Prime Minister.

.


Ronsdog
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Jul 28, 2019, 3:49 PM

Posts: 2665
Location: Sarf London
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Post #4038 of 4292 (699 views)
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     Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

 
I was speaking with a current Labour MP yesterday and during the course of our discussion he recounted this joke that is currently doing the rounds of the bars in parliament.....

A Marxist, an IRA sympathiser and a racist when into the pub.
The barman said..." What can I get you Mr Corbyn? "

Kind of encapsulates it nicelyWink


jon b
First Team Star

Jul 28, 2019, 5:56 PM

Posts: 2963
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Post #4039 of 4292 (658 views)
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     Re: [kirby knitters] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Apparently, Ms Patel. with her usual competence and grasp of detail, has declared how she is going to secure our borders, deal or no deal.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/...rs-deal-no-deal.html

I pity the poor civil servant who has to remind her about the unmanned 310 mile land border with the Republic of Ireland.

.


leohoenig
Administrator

Jul 28, 2019, 10:32 PM

Posts: 13471
Location: Outer Cheltenhamshire
Team(s): Cheltenham Town

Post #4040 of 4292 (607 views)
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     Re: [jon b] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Which always leaves the question as to whether or not Ms Patels parents would have been allowed in? What were their qualifications
She does not make it clear whether we still offer safe haven to people like my father

Is it really the EU's fault that many conservative ministers have said they are going to achieve much the same as Ms Patel has claimed and then failed to do so? Why didn't these ministers say we would like to do this, but the EU has stopped us?



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



jrev61
Man City Transfer Target!

Jul 28, 2019, 11:08 PM

Posts: 7907
Location: Northampton
Team(s): None

Post #4041 of 4292 (590 views)
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     Re: [Ronsdog] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I was speaking with a current Labour MP yesterday and during the course of our discussion he recounted this joke that is currently doing the rounds of the bars in parliament.....

A Marxist, an IRA sympathiser and a racist when into the pub.
The barman said..." What can I get you Mr Corbyn? "

Kind of encapsulates it nicelyWink


Very original, adapting a joke about Donald Trump.



jrev61

(This post was edited by jrev61 on Jul 28, 2019, 11:10 PM)


Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jul 28, 2019, 11:16 PM

Posts: 3245
Location:
Team(s): Doncaster Rovers, Everton, Mablethorpe

Post #4042 of 4292 (586 views)
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     Re: [jrev61] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I was speaking with a current Labour MP yesterday and during the course of our discussion he recounted this joke that is currently doing the rounds of the bars in parliament.....

A Marxist, an IRA sympathiser and a racist when into the pub.
The barman said..." What can I get you Mr Corbyn? "

Kind of encapsulates it nicelyWink


Very original, adapting a joke about Donald Trump.

You're expecting something original from an MP? When was the last time that happened?



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


Yatesman
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Jul 29, 2019, 7:21 AM

Posts: 1377
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Post #4043 of 4292 (525 views)
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     Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Which always leaves the question as to whether or not Ms Patels parents would have been allowed in? What were their qualifications
She does not make it clear whether we still offer safe haven to people like my father

Is it really the EU's fault that many conservative ministers have said they are going to achieve much the same as Ms Patel has claimed and then failed to do so? Why didn't these ministers say we would like to do this, but the EU has stopped us?


Allowing individual cases to set policy is always a big mistake and leads to bad laws being passed.

Asylum and 'safe havens' are entirely separate to immigration.

For example , people fleeing war in Syria reach Bosnia and Turkey......There they can be given safe haven and protected.

The minute they try to cross in to Croatia they become economic
migrants. Their status changes.


leohoenig
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Jul 29, 2019, 12:20 PM

Posts: 13471
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Post #4044 of 4292 (508 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Allowing individual cases to set policy is always a big mistake and leads to bad laws being passed.

Asylum and 'safe havens' are entirely separate to immigration.

For example , people fleeing war in Syria reach Bosnia and Turkey......There they can be given safe haven and protected.

The minute they try to cross in to Croatia they become economic
migrants. Their status changes.


I am not asking for policy to be set on individual cases - but instead asking the effect of the policy on individual cases.

Yes, let's ignore all refugees unless they can manage to get to the UK without passing through another country first. Glad we did not do that in 1938.

The theory that we can completely close the border and only let the approved minority through just does not work. Instead it creates opportunities for criminal gangs and people smugglers, accompanied by hardship and deaths as people try to make illegal entry.

For those of you who did Biology at O level, (GCSE for the young'uns), you may have come across something called Osmosis. This is the movement of molecules through a semi-permeable membrane in order to equalise concentrations either side.

By analogy, borders are always semi-permeable. Despite the attempts of governments over the years, even the iron curtain and the great wall have not been able to fully secure a border.

In the analogy, it is the concentration of wealth that creates the pressure. Hence people will move from an area of low wealth to one of relatively high wealth (or perceived high wealth). If you want to stop this, the best way is not to strengthen the borders but to increase the wealth levels the other side of the border.

The points where the analogy breaks down is that the mix is not homogenous on either side of the border. Hence where the arrival of immigrants may add to the underclass which exists around the edges of all major western cities, but also (by a process which may amaze the ancient alchemists) tends to increase the wealth in the wealthy countries over time, (witness the long term benefit to the UK economy of allowing the Ugandan Asians in). In the opposite direction, aid giving countries have always had difficulty in providing aid that helps the people who need help in the receiving countries.



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Tykeoldboy
Chelsea Transfer Target


Jul 29, 2019, 4:02 PM

Posts: 3245
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Post #4045 of 4292 (448 views)
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     Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

So the vote the MP's took to take the option of "No Deal" of the table, along with all the other options that were voted on, was just an exercise in time wasting since this new administration is saying that "No Deal" looks the most likely outcome.



The feeling of utter devastation when you pick up your mug and realise you already finished your tea.


007Dale
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Jul 29, 2019, 4:11 PM

Posts: 1681
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Post #4046 of 4292 (446 views)
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     Re: [Tykeoldboy] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
So the vote the MP's took to take the option of "No Deal" of the table, along with all the other options that were voted on, was just an exercise in time wasting since this new administration is saying that "No Deal" looks the most likely outcome.


MPs can vote until the cows come home, the default position is we leave without a deal.

Legislation would have to be passed in order to change that. Not sure they’ll be able to do that in the time left. Even if they did, Johnson would just call a General Election and probably win a comfortable majority so long as Corbyn is the leader of the opposition.


Yatesman
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Jul 29, 2019, 7:30 PM

Posts: 1377
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Post #4047 of 4292 (399 views)
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     Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

Allowing individual cases to set policy is always a big mistake and leads to bad laws being passed.

Asylum and 'safe havens' are entirely separate to immigration.

For example , people fleeing war in Syria reach Bosnia and Turkey......There they can be given safe haven and protected.

The minute they try to cross in to Croatia they become economic
migrants. Their status changes.


I am not asking for policy to be set on individual cases - but instead asking the effect of the policy on individual cases.

Yes, let's ignore all refugees unless they can manage to get to the UK without passing through another country first. Glad we did not do that in 1938.

The theory that we can completely close the border and only let the approved minority through just does not work. Instead it creates opportunities for criminal gangs and people smugglers, accompanied by hardship and deaths as people try to make illegal entry.

For those of you who did Biology at O level, (GCSE for the young'uns), you may have come across something called Osmosis. This is the movement of molecules through a semi-permeable membrane in order to equalise concentrations either side.

By analogy, borders are always semi-permeable. Despite the attempts of governments over the years, even the iron curtain and the great wall have not been able to fully secure a border.

In the analogy, it is the concentration of wealth that creates the pressure. Hence people will move from an area of low wealth to one of relatively high wealth (or perceived high wealth). If you want to stop this, the best way is not to strengthen the borders but to increase the wealth levels the other side of the border.

The points where the analogy breaks down is that the mix is not homogenous on either side of the border. Hence where the arrival of immigrants may add to the underclass which exists around the edges of all major western cities, but also (by a process which may amaze the ancient alchemists) tends to increase the wealth in the wealthy countries over time, (witness the long term benefit to the UK economy of allowing the Ugandan Asians in). In the opposite direction, aid giving countries have always had difficulty in providing aid that helps the people who need help in the receiving countries.


Todays regional conflicts outside of Europe do not compare with the existential threat Europe faced in 1938.

There are 6 -7 billion people on this planet many of whom , say 1 billion , are affected by regional conflicts and localised natural crises.

Are you suggesting we open the borders and allow them to make their way to the UK or, like me, do you believe we address their needs in partnership with other able nations in the region they live and are connected with/to?

Asylum claim to the UK itself should only be entertained sparingly and where there is specific need and preferably in patnership with other nations, but the criteria for asylum needs to be robust.

Economic migration should be subject to a points based criteria that reflects the specific needs the nation faces. .......Other countries manage that. I've no doubt we could.

Why do you have a problem with a sensible, managed and planned immigration/ asylum system?
Would it not be better than the current chaos?


leohoenig
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Jul 29, 2019, 8:15 PM

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Post #4048 of 4292 (382 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

That's twice in a single post that you have suggested we need to work in co-operation with other Nations

If only there was an organisation in Europe for this



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com



Yatesman
First Team Regular

Jul 29, 2019, 8:35 PM

Posts: 1377
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Post #4049 of 4292 (374 views)
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     Re: [leohoenig] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately


In Reply To
That's twice in a single post that you have suggested we need to work in co-operation with other Nations

If only there was an organisation in Europe for this


There isn't .

That's the problem.

Anyway, the issues are global and the EU does not represent the UK particularly well in global matters......hence our decision to Leave.


leohoenig
Administrator

Jul 29, 2019, 9:26 PM

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Post #4050 of 4292 (356 views)
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     Re: [Yatesman] EU Withdrawal Negotiations [In reply to]   or Reply Privately

Are we leaving the globe now?



Fat AND Pompous.
The proof that you can have too much of a good thing
Now blogging at http://www.leohoenig.com


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