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Catalan Referendum

 



Ronsdog
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Oct 6, 2017, 1:23 AM

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Catalan Referendum Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
A situation badly mismanaged by the National Government in Madrid.

The stench of fascism still pervades the Spanish capital.


DonQuixote
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Oct 6, 2017, 5:49 AM

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Re: [Ronsdog] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It was quite surreal watching it unfold on Cat TV from just a few miles up the road.

Madrid sent in the Guardia Civil knowing that the Mossos - Catalan cops - were
hardly going to turn against their own.

It was interesting that after head honcho Carles Puigdement had cast his vote,
the local TV was saying that people could vote at any polling station in Catalunya.

If true, this would have course travelled like wild fire around social media, so it
was either bollocks, or the locals were just pissed off with the GC and carried on
demonstrating anyway.

The sensible route that the Spanish capital should have taken would have been
to let the vote go ahead then turn around and say it ain't gonna happen - regardless
of the result.

Had visions of being stuck there when I heard about the general strike on Monday
afternoon but managed to get a train to Girona and the international express
to Paris was running on time.




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.



007Dale
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Oct 6, 2017, 6:15 AM

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Re: [DonQuixote] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Regarding the vote, I don't think there was necessarily a majority supporting independence. Obviously, that changed with the antics of the Spanish Government.

Had the Government agreed to vote, as the uK Government did with Scotland, and campaigned democraticly, the Spanish would probably have won the argument.

The argument of breaking up Spain doesn't make sense to me, I believe the only other region that would seriously contemplate leaving is the Basques.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Oct 6, 2017, 10:06 AM)


kirby knitters
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Oct 6, 2017, 9:35 AM

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Re: [DonQuixote] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Was El Prat closed then?


DonQuixote
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Oct 6, 2017, 9:53 AM

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Re: [kirby knitters] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Dunno..don't do planes.

Left early and got a taxi to Massanes/Macanet and trains were running to Girona,
so arrived there an hour earlier than expected.

Wasn't looking forward to hanging around in E* terminal in Paris for 90 minutes
but got an unexpected upgrade to first class...

...worth a thread of its own as to what happened over the next 60 minutes...Cool




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kirby knitters
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Oct 6, 2017, 10:03 AM

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Re: [DonQuixote] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sorry I forgot you were a Non-Frequent Flyer.


No need to bother with a new thread but I've a feeling there is one hell of a story waiting to be told so go ahead.Sly


(This post was edited by kirby knitters on Oct 6, 2017, 10:17 AM)


buncranaboy
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Oct 8, 2017, 10:57 PM

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Re: [Ronsdog] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
A situation badly mismanaged by the National Government in Madrid.

The stench of fascism still pervades the Spanish capital.


And very like what happened in 1916 when a small band of idealists with very little popular support launched what they knew would be an ill-fated Easter Rising but the reaction to it gave almost the entire population a sense of grievance and renewed nationalism and led the way to the formation of the independent Irish state. It's not the action,but the reaction.......
And it's not as if we haven't been down this road in Spain before, not all that long ago......heaven forfend.


Ronsdog
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Oct 9, 2017, 12:17 AM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
A situation badly mismanaged by the National Government in Madrid.

The stench of fascism still pervades the Spanish capital.


And very like what happened in 1916 when a small band of idealists with very little popular support launched what they knew would be an ill-fated Easter Rising but the reaction to it gave almost the entire population a sense of grievance and renewed nationalism and led the way to the formation of the independent Irish state. It's not the action,but the reaction.......
And it's not as if we haven't been down this road in Spain before, not all that long ago......heaven forfend.


Quite Paddy.....and Spanish friends of mine were quick to draw similar parallels. After all it was barely 35 years ago that Spain's fragile and infant democracy was shaken by a coup attempt led by the same Civil Guardia....a lesson for those in the UK that still will not accept our own recent referendum result.


jon b
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Oct 10, 2017, 11:35 PM

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Post #9 of 36 (2799 views)
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a lesson for those in the UK that still will not accept our own recent referendum result.


Really?

Although I don't want another Euro Referendum I've no problem with people campaigning for a second Euro poll, after all if a Referendum result was taken to be binding for all time then we'd all be supposed to accept the result of the 1975 Referendum on joining what became the EU.

I'd have thought peaceful campaigning by Remainers for another Euro Referendum or SNP supporters for another Scottish Independence poll, is democracy in action.

Something we do rather better than the Spanish.


Sarumio
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Oct 11, 2017, 9:56 AM

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In Reply To

a lesson for those in the UK that still will not accept our own recent referendum result.


Really?

Although I don't want another Euro Referendum I've no problem with people campaigning for a second Euro poll, after all if a Referendum result was taken to be binding for all time then we'd all be supposed to accept the result of the 1975 Referendum on joining what became the EU.

I'd have thought peaceful campaigning by Remainers for another Euro Referendum or SNP supporters for another Scottish Independence poll, is democracy in action.

Something we do rather better than the Spanish.


Utter nonsense. You cannot keep having referendums on the same issue every couple of years.

Referendums are not supposed to be binding for all time. That's a very black and white way of looking at things! Referendums are there to capture the views and opinions of the people at snapshots in time.

The population that votes on a particular issue needs to have....
- lived with their original decision to see if it was right
- changed - i.e. over half that voted will have died and been replaced by a new generation.
...before that issue gets voted on again.

You cannot just keep issuing referendums to by and large the same group of people, the same populace until you get the result you want from them!

Referendums are SERIOUS.

They should be binding for a generation at least, probably two – 40-50 years.

Campaigners for new referendums on the EU and Scottish Independence are belittling what a referendum is. It’s not an opinion poll or a little questionnaire. It is a generational view and the only way to collect one. Campaigners are ultimately thick and cannot accept the opinion of the majority.

Take the Scottish independence referendum – it was said in pretty much every speech “This is a ONCE in a lifetime chance”, and “This chance only comes around once in every generation, the majority of you will not get another chance to make Scotland independent” etc etc. These phrases were heavily, HEAVILY drilled into the Scottish people, even by Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond.

So Sturgeon talking about another one so soon, and all these people talking about another EU referendum so soon, should just be treated as unintelligent, be treated as bullies, be treated as people who cannot accept the will of this current population and the rule of law and democracy. It’s also extremely narrow minded, ignorant and condescending of these campaigners to think that the people that voted the opposite way to them, just need to be “educated” better so that they start seeing things the correct “way” and change their vote next time.

Regardless of their intelligence, their views, their interest in politics, their understanding of what their vote really means, EVERYONE is entitled to vote as they see fit and that’s the end of it. That’s the referendum result, and it’s the outcome of that that impacts the next generation for the next 30-50 years, not just the next couple of years!

You can’t just come out of an organisation like the EU and re-enter it, back and forth back and forth, every couple of years. If you vote in, you join for a considerable amount of time, if you vote to leave, you vote to leave for a considerable amount of time.

Same goes for independence. Scotland can’t vote for independence, leave the UK, then the people not happy with it campaign and succeed in getting another vote on it, 2-5 years later, only for the vote to say that Scotland wants to give up its independence and re-join the UK. And so it gives up its sovereignty and re-joins the UK. But then the people not happy with that 5 years down the line campaign and succeed in getting Scotland to re-leave the UK. And so on and so forth. Utter ridiculous nonsense. Scotland made its “Once in a lifetime” decision and there should be no other chance for at least a 40-50 years!

All that’s lacking is acceptance….rant over!


(This post was edited by Sarumio on Oct 11, 2017, 10:03 AM)


jon b
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Oct 13, 2017, 7:22 PM

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Post #11 of 36 (2593 views)
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Re: [Sarumio] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think we can allow Remainers to respect the Referendum result to exactly the same degree as Farageman would have respected a narrow defeat for the Brexiteers. Cool


DonQuixote
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Oct 27, 2017, 2:45 PM

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Re: [jon b] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Catalunya fire the silver bullet....




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PaulC
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Oct 27, 2017, 8:47 PM

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Re: [Sarumio] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Rarely have I read so much nonsense in one post.

On the EU referendum, what sane person would condemn the UK to leaving the EU if the final terms are deemed by Parliament or the public to be disastrous for the UK? What sane person wants to cut off their nose just to spite their face.

I'm no great fan of referenda - it's just too easy for the ignorant, ill-educated, racists and bigots to lead us onto disaster.

As for the Scottish referendum, it is nonsense to suggest as you have that 'once in a lifetime' was mentioned in nearly every speech. It simply isn't true. Salmond said this once, prefaced with 'in my personal opinion'.

The SNP was reelected on a manifesto of having the right to call another referendum if there was a significant change in Scotland's situation. Scotland is being dragged out of the EU, against its wishes, by England. That's a significant change.

Why do wish to deny a nation (UK or Scotland) the right to change its mind? That is not democracy.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 27, 2017, 8:50 PM)


garethwrexy
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Oct 27, 2017, 8:50 PM

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Re: [Ronsdog] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Thought Spain was free country



wrexham fc fa trophy winners 2013 !


gcnc
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Oct 27, 2017, 9:41 PM

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In Reply To
The SNP was reelected on a manifesto of having the right to call another referendum if there was a significant change in Scotland's situation. Scotland is being dragged out of the EU, against its wishes, by England. That's a significant change.


The SNP was reelected with that in the manifesto, but I suspect that it wasn't the main reason why many people voted SNP. The economic case for Scottish independence declines year by year, as the value and supply of their main asset diminishes. Whatever happens with Brexit, Sturgeon won't call another referendum. The majority for No would be larger next time.


PaulC
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Oct 27, 2017, 10:09 PM

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In Reply To

In Reply To
The SNP was reelected on a manifesto of having the right to call another referendum if there was a significant change in Scotland's situation. Scotland is being dragged out of the EU, against its wishes, by England. That's a significant change.


The SNP was reelected with that in the manifesto, but I suspect that it wasn't the main reason why many people voted SNP. The economic case for Scottish independence declines year by year, as the value and supply of their main asset diminishes. Whatever happens with Brexit, Sturgeon won't call another referendum. The majority for No would be larger next time.


What the people of Scotland choose to do is neither here nor there - that isn't the issue here.

Sarumio is arguing the people of the UK should not have the right to give their verdict on the EU deal if it's ever finalised no matter how disastrous they then believe it to be .... all because a few years earlier they had voted for a pig in a poke.

Likewise he's arguing that the people of Scotland shouldn't have the right to another referendum even if they want one and had already agreed to having one should circumstances change.

What sane people deny themselves the right to reject a deal they believe to be detrimental to them?


Richard Rundle
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Re: [PaulC] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We have a General Election every five years (or less). Perhaps we shouldn't have another one until 50% of the population have died?


jon b
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Oct 28, 2017, 1:27 AM

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Re: [buncranaboy] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
A situation badly mismanaged by the National Government in Madrid.

The stench of fascism still pervades the Spanish capital.


And very like what happened in 1916 when a small band of idealists with very little popular support launched what they knew would be an ill-fated Easter Rising but the reaction to it gave almost the entire population a sense of grievance and renewed nationalism and led the way to the formation of the independent Irish state. It's not the action,but the reaction.......
And it's not as if we haven't been down this road in Spain before, not all that long ago......heaven forfend.


This has the potential for going horrendously wrong for all sides.

Lots of bitter memories from not that long ago.


DonQuixote
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Oct 28, 2017, 1:38 AM

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Re: [jon b] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Cannot disagree with that...if Rajoy sends in la guarda civil - universally
hated in Catalunya - then I fear that this situation may not end well.




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007Dale
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Oct 28, 2017, 3:25 AM

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Likewise he's arguing that the people of Scotland shouldn't have the right to another referendum even if they want one and had already agreed to having one should circumstances change.

What sane people deny themselves the right to reject a deal they believe to be detrimental to them?


You assume that the only people that matter are the Scots in this case. Another independence referendum has destabilising consequences for the whole country, not just Scots.

Whilst I support the right of Scots (and anyone else for that matter) to self-determination, this can't be done in a whim every couple of years; for the sake of the whole country.

Once in a generation seems appropriate, and that would be c25 years. At the end of the day, the Scots voted to stay part of the UK and abide by country-wide decisions it made.

In twenty-odd years time, feel free to review that decision collectively, with many other country-wide decisions that have been made by then, not just the EU referendum.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Oct 28, 2017, 3:28 AM)


DonQuixote
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Oct 28, 2017, 4:20 AM

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Re: [007Dale] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As a side note, didn't the EU force Ireland and Denmark to vote twice
for the Lisbon Treaty because the good burghers of Brussels/Strasbourg - or
wherever they feed from the trough these days - where not happy with
the first set of results?

Wake up and smell the democracy.




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windydcfc
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Oct 28, 2017, 6:45 AM

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Re: [PaulC] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm no great fan of referenda - it's just too easy for the ignorant, ill-educated, racists and bigots to lead us onto disaster.


And that's why my Dad left Scotland in the 60's......


Sarumio
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Post #23 of 36 (1882 views)
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Rarely have I read so much nonsense in one post.

On the EU referendum, what sane person would condemn the UK to leaving the EU if the final terms are deemed by Parliament or the public to be disastrous for the UK? What sane person wants to cut off their nose just to spite their face.

I'm no great fan of referenda - it's just too easy for the ignorant, ill-educated, racists and bigots to lead us onto disaster.

As for the Scottish referendum, it is nonsense to suggest as you have that 'once in a lifetime' was mentioned in nearly every speech. It simply isn't true. Salmond said this once, prefaced with 'in my personal opinion'.

The SNP was reelected on a manifesto of having the right to call another referendum if there was a significant change in Scotland's situation. Scotland is being dragged out of the EU, against its wishes, by England. That's a significant change.

Why do wish to deny a nation (UK or Scotland) the right to change its mind? That is not democracy.


You've just proved everything I said in my post! Thank you!


jrev61
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Re: [Sarumio] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The next Barcelona v. Real Madrid match should be interesting, if it happens.



jrev61


PaulC
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Re: [Sarumio] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I think you need to re-read a bit more carefully what you posted and what I posted.


prorege
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Re: [007Dale] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is true that some politicians presented the Scottish referendum as a once in a generation event. However, some politicians, including the then Prime Minister, also made the vow that remaining in the U.K was the only way for Scotland to retain EU membership. Some who voted No, myself included, thought that was important.

Given the fundamental change in the situation with the EU, I would fully support another referendum on Scottish independence. I am not sure how I would vote but the mistruths peddled at the time justify a further vote.


007Dale
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Oct 28, 2017, 11:21 AM

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It is true that some politicians presented the Scottish referendum as a once in a generation event. However, some politicians, including the then Prime Minister, also made the vow that remaining in the U.K was the only way for Scotland to retain EU membership. Some who voted No, myself included, thought that was important.

Given the fundamental change in the situation with the EU, I would fully support another referendum on Scottish independence. I am not sure how I would vote but the mistruths peddled at the time justify a further vote.


Well, as a citizen of the United Kingdom I don't support you having another vote. I supported you having your vote last time, and wanted you to stay, but we can't have all of this destabilising nonsense again.

I will also point out that had the EU vote been closer, it could have been England and Wales being kept in the EU against its wishes because of the Scots and Irish. That's what being part of one country is about.


steveking
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Post #28 of 36 (1151 views)
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In Reply To
I will also point out that had the EU vote been closer, it could have been England and Wales being kept in the EU against its wishes because of the Scots and Irish.

I would think there are not enough votes in Scotland and Northern Ireland for that to be true. If the vote had been for remain it would have required England to have voted that way too or at least have voted remain in greater numbers than it did.


PaulC
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Oct 28, 2017, 11:35 AM

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I will also point out that had the EU vote been closer, it could have been England and Wales being kept in the EU against its wishes because of the Scots and Irish. That's what being part of one country is about.


And the leader of the English Leave campaign - Farage - had already announced that a narrow majoirty to remain would not be the end of it.

Either you accept the right of people to determine their destiny based on all current circumstances, or you don't.

At the moment there is no likelihood of a second Scottish referendum because a majority does not want one - according to the polls. But say in 5 years time, if we leave the EU and Scotland, as predicted, becomes the part of the UK worst affected by England's decision, there may be an increasing demand for a referendum. Who are you to deny the people of Scotland the right to do what they believe is best for their country?


http://www.heraldscotland.com/...ves_EU_without_deal/


(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 28, 2017, 11:39 AM)


007Dale
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Re: [PaulC] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In order for a legally binding vote on Scottish independence two key things need to happen:
1. The Scots must want the vote.
2. The British Government has to agree to it.

Both things were in place last time, neither are in place presently and the second part may well not be in place for many, many years.

As I say, a decision on IndyRef2 has implications on the whole of the UK, hence why part 2 is as important as part 1.


PaulC
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Oct 28, 2017, 12:01 PM

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Post #31 of 36 (1124 views)
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In order for a legally binding vote on Scottish independence two key things need to happen:
1. The Scots must want the vote.
2. The British Government has to agree to it.

Both things were in place last time, neither are in place presently and the second part may well not be in place for many, many years.

As I say, a decision on IndyRef2 has implications on the whole of the UK, hence why part 2 is as important as part 1.


Of course it is. But you are arguing that if, in response to changed circumstances since 2014, a majority of Scots decide they want a referendum and independence they should be denied because they had a referendum some time in the past.

How does that opinion sit with the notion of democracy?

I'm certain that if England had been kept in the EU by Scotland there would now be an unstoppable clamour for a further referendum if there remained an English majority to leave..


(This post was edited by PaulC on Oct 28, 2017, 12:02 PM)


stewarty
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Post #32 of 36 (1027 views)
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In order for a legally binding vote on Scottish independence two key things need to happen:
1. The Scots must want the vote.
2. The British Government has to agree to it.

Both things were in place last time, neither are in place presently and the second part may well not be in place for many, many years.

As I say, a decision on IndyRef2 has implications on the whole of the UK, hence why part 2 is as important as part 1.



Re. 1. above, dont fully rely on comments by Ruth Davidson et al. Just repeating the same phrase over and over again doesnt always necessarily mean its fully factual.

Many Scots do want another referendum but are content to see how Brexit pans out first. Signs to date do not fully inspire confidence. Perhaps with a bit more common sense applied and less thoughts of "empire re-building" by those supposedly in power some confidence and even reality could be improved.


mick
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Re: [stewarty] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not quite sure why a thread about the Catalan Referendum has morphed into one about the Scottish and EU referenda as both of those have their own threads for people who want to go over old ground.

Back in Catalonia the situation does not seem to be improving since the declaration of independence and the Belgian minister for asylum and migration has said that Mr Puigdemont may be able to seek asylum in Belgium should the need arise. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-catalan-government/


DonQuixote
Chelsea Transfer Target


Oct 29, 2017, 8:14 PM

Posts: 6012
Location: Crossrail - Zone 6
Team(s): Romford, Everton, @BrentwoodSunLge

Post #34 of 36 (933 views)
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Re: [mick] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

First blood to Catalunya tonight....


Girona 2 Real Madrid 1 - wallop!




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.



PaulC
Man City Transfer Target!


Oct 29, 2017, 9:42 PM

Posts: 11541
Location: Ayrshire, Midlothian
Team(s): AFC Darwen, Troon, Ayr Utd, Burnley

Post #35 of 36 (907 views)
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Re: [DonQuixote] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
First blood to Catalunya tonight....


Girona 2 Real Madrid 1 - wallop!


Fewer than 20% of the Girona team scored so I think that's a win for Madrid.


DonQuixote
Chelsea Transfer Target


Oct 29, 2017, 10:33 PM

Posts: 6012
Location: Crossrail - Zone 6
Team(s): Romford, Everton, @BrentwoodSunLge

Post #36 of 36 (896 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Catalan Referendum [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I was out there when they played Barça last month and
tried to get tickets - €300 a throw so bollocks to that.




FA Vase semi programme wanted: 2001 Taunton v Clitheroe.


 
 


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