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Shock General Election Called

 

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007Dale
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:38 PM

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Post #1476 of 1627 (2047 views)
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Re: [Fanatic] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Exactly that, acmold.

Still, all we seem to hear from Auntie Beeb and co. is about how godawful things are for the young folk. The older generations can do one.


Don't forget that this group will also have to give up things to support all these bribes to younger voters. TBH, the £9,000 a year bribe - and that's exactly what it was - to students, is nothing short of disgraceful. It's the older generation described as selfish by youth, yet it's the youth that have allowed themselves to be bribed.

I will point out that I am in my late thirties, so impartial in the youth / retired argument. But to be clear, I don't see why Mr and Mrs hardworking of Acacia Avenue should pay for Dolly Dropout to take Media Studies at Demontford Poly.


Because (a) in a few years time, "Dolly Dropout" will be paying her taxes so the next generation can go to uni as well and (b) a better qualified workforce means the UK economy is more competitive. In all likelihood Mr and Mrs Hardworking would have had the opportunity to go to uni for free (the majority of people of working age would have been 18-21 at a time when uni was free). I paid my student loan off years ago but I have no problem being part of a generation that lost out as long as the younger generation don't have to pay tuition fees.

I also think the language you use in your post is very poor. Free university tuition is not a "bribe", it's a reasonable policy that is done around Europe and even in certain parts of the UK. Likewise contrasting "Mr and Mrs Hardworking" with "Dolly Dropout". By all means let's have a debate, but it should be rational not emotive,


My language is absolutely fine - it was a bribe.

We have record numbers of University students at the minute, and they mostly pay for University themselves, so we get future taxes already without subsidising the now. By having students pay (when they are earning) it means they take course because they actually want to learn - not because it's a free ride for 3 years.

I could be persuaded that the state funds certain courses linked to future professions that we have a shortage of, say nursing, maths teachers, scientists etc. But not for rubbish courses at pointless universities.

At the risk of offending people that go to pretend universities (Trent, Demont, UWE step up) at the time we had universally free degree education there were a lot less students. Look to Scotland for examples of where free tuition isn't the solution to all our education problems.

I'd also rather pump morenmoney into trade apprenticeships like Electrical, Plumbing and Building.


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:42 PM

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Post #1477 of 1627 (2043 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

You and I are comparatively lucky then, Richard.

I've saved up since the age of 10 and, thanks to some good advice by my Financial Advisor, I should have a comfortable retirement. I do feel for those who will be in trouble, and were it up to me I would make Banking & Money Management a compulsory subject to do in schools.

I did save a lot by turning University down though. Wink


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:51 PM

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Post #1478 of 1627 (2036 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Also, are Universities good value for money?

It does seem a bit pricey to study for three years in an overwhelmingly liberal environment, and then to come out of it with a useless degree if you go down the road of Gender Studies and Women's Rights Degrees (yep, I hear the pitchforks...) which pay very little and hardly help to pay your debts off.

Also, all that homophobia, racism and micro-aggressions that we keep hearing about from Universities... it doesn't sound like a very 'safe space' for anybody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g60ON91ClLA (an American example, but translates well with UK Universities).

I agree, we need more apprenticeships and more paid internships - look at the Sky Academy and the work it does by helping young people get jobs. Universities have their place, yes, but they need to change and also fees need to be capped or we give grants to students studying proper degrees - we can raid the Overseas Fund if needed.


(This post was edited by MrTangerineMan on Jun 13, 2017, 10:53 PM)


PaulC
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:54 PM

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Post #1479 of 1627 (2032 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Exactly that, acmold.

Still, all we seem to hear from Auntie Beeb and co. is about how godawful things are for the young folk. The older generations can do one.


Not at all. See how much the media (even the Tory press) hated the Government's proposals to end the "triple lock" and for what was dubbed the "dementia tax"

A lot of what is now the middle-aged group (including me) were able to pay into index-linked, final salary pension schemes way beyond what is available to the younger generation these days.


The post-war baby boomers (of which I am one) have been the most fortunate generation. We have been cossetted and still are.

As students - no university tuition fees plus a grant sufficient to live off comfortably. No need to work to fund our studies.
index-linked final salary occupational pensions
triple-locked state pensions at 60/65
free bus travel within Scotland
1/3 off rail travel within the region
winter heating allowance
half price at football matches(!)

In retirement, from pensions, the missus and I each receive after tax more than the average wage pre-tax.... and a mortgage paid off decades ago. Life's one long holiday.

A large proportion of the baby boomers have never had it so good - yet they choose to vote for the party of personal greed.

http://cloud.highcharts.com/show/oxufehu

It makes me laugh when people talk about the "bribe" of no tuition fees for students in England and how it is unaffordable. Scotland made that choice long ago. It's all about priorities. Same with free prescriptions. In England 90% of prescriptions are already dispensed free of charge - why is there no political will to extend that to everyone?

I think it's possibly dawning on people in England that the Tory policy of austerity was never intended to solve economic problems - it's intention was to destroy social welfare and social services just as they are hellbent on destroying the NHS and handing it over the spivs and wide boys of private health care..

Thank goodness Corbyn has made people realise it doesn't have to be like that.


(This post was edited by PaulC on Jun 13, 2017, 10:56 PM)


PaulC
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:55 PM

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Post #1480 of 1627 (2030 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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AAlso, all that homophobia, racism and micro-aggressions that we keep hearing about from Universities


Where do we hear about that?


(This post was edited by PaulC on Jun 13, 2017, 11:03 PM)


Tykeoldboy
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Jun 13, 2017, 10:58 PM

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Post #1481 of 1627 (2024 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I watched Monday's Panorama program about the election and George Osborne did come across as a very bitter person.


PaulC
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:04 PM

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Post #1482 of 1627 (2019 views)
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I watched Monday's Panorama program about the election and George Osborne did come across as a very bitter person.


I didn't detect any bitterness at all.


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:04 PM

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Post #1483 of 1627 (2018 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

They vote for the party of personal greed, eh?

Well, it makes a change from the party that will take it from them and no doubt squander it. Nobody does these people a favour, so yeah why not be greedy?

I mean, what is good for the goose...


mick
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:11 PM

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Post #1484 of 1627 (2012 views)
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Re: [acmold] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Surely it's the 50 to 60's who have been and will be hard done by. Had nearly 40 years uncertainty over jobs. When they were young none of the benefits of today's youngsters, full price for everything at 14 or 15. No where near the education chances of today's youngsters. Now they are getting towards retirement age said age is increasing. Pensions they have paid in for both through their job and privately being devalued, less chance of a full state pension because if they have paid in for other pensions those years don't count towards the new state one


Don't assume that your experiences match the experiences of everyone else of the same age.


Fanatic
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:14 PM

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Post #1485 of 1627 (2005 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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My language is absolutely fine - it was a bribe.


No, it's a policy. Bribery is illegal in the UK.

If you can't debate an idea without labelling it in a way that attempts to ensure it is preconceived in a negative manner, then I would suggest you've already lost the argument.


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:18 PM

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Post #1486 of 1627 (1999 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Dig a bit deeper online, Paul, plenty of examples about students being 'triggered' by micro-aggressions and shouting down people for being homophobic, racist, xenophobic etc. when they aren't.

There was a story about so-called 'Rape culture' on University Campuses in the UK with a reported 1500% rise since 2010. I believe it was actually in one of the Liberal newspapers, so possibly The Guardian.

Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition, this allegation would mean that every student on every campus would have been raped over 15 times in an academic year. It would be more problematic than in Togo where warriors in the Jungle use rape as an act of war.

The fact is that University Campuses and most British towns, cities, villages etc. do not have as serious a rape problem as stated. In fact, even with a recent unfortunate national rise in the number of reported rapes, we are nowhere close to the 1500% increase.

Also, when students are offended to the point of rioting that people that they disapprove of are visiting their University to give a talk, that is another example of their feelings coming before facts. Even if they feel sad or feel victimised, that is raison d'etre to go crazy. It's not even people like Tommy Robinson (EDL not 2,4,6,8) and Nigel Farage who get threatened but Germaine Greer and Jenni Murray - far from being nasty right-wing people! Oh, but Islamic Hate Preachers are okay because 'we must practice tolereance and diversity'. A pity that diversity of thought is banned.

https://www.theguardian.com/...s-hate-speech-u-turn (strong and steady is more like browbeaten and chided here!)

If there is a cultural problem on University Campuses, then surely this needs looking at - after all, Universities are academic institutuions for the leaders of tomorrow, not the playground of a spoilt privileged white omnisexual whom identifies as a Unicorn.


steve walker
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:21 PM

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Post #1487 of 1627 (1996 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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My language is absolutely fine - it was a bribe.

I really want to pick you up on this student fees 'bribe'. The University student fees was really a not thought out policy by the Blair government. It said that Unis were allowed to charge "up to" £3,00 per year for tuition. What they didn't seem to get is that ALL Universities would then charge £3,000 because of the concept that you get what you pay for therefore any charging less are somehow 'inferior' Universities.

They got that wrong big time. The other thing is that the older generation that did go to University did so without fees so yes I think you could describe them as selfish when they are trying to impose them on the current generation.

The most important point though is that abolishing student fees doesn't actually cost that much. The Government still pays, it just hopes to recoup the money in the future. The argument is that if you go to Uni you will earn more money during your lifetime. Yes well then you will pay more tax won't you? Isn't that how the tax system works?

By the Governments own figures they expect to recover at the most half of all student debt owed. Some graduates will not earn the minimum amount to trigger payments, some will emigrate, some will have it written off after the 30 year time limit.

My daughter graduated, took a teaching course and worked as a teacher for two years. She was so disillusioned with cuts to the education budget that she went off to Spain a year ago where she gets paid more, has a lighter work load and to be honest feels more respected as a member of the community. I still get letters from Student Finance which is Government funded at least every six weeks at my house chasing her for student debt. How much is that costing us tax payers?


(This post was edited by steve walker on Jun 13, 2017, 11:23 PM)


Fanatic
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:31 PM

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Post #1488 of 1627 (1981 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition.


What?

If my energy bill goes from £300/yr to £900/year, it's a 200% increase.

Dr Rick explains it for you here: http://mathforum.org/...math/view/58166.html


steve walker
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:44 PM

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Post #1489 of 1627 (1963 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Dig a bit deeper online, Paul, plenty of examples about students being 'triggered' by micro-aggressions and shouting down people for being homophobic, racist, xenophobic etc. when they aren't.

There was a story about so-called 'Rape culture' on University Campuses in the UK with a reported 1500% rise since 2010. I believe it was actually in one of the Liberal newspapers, so possibly The Guardian.

Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition, this allegation would mean that every student on every campus would have been raped over 15 times in an academic year. It would be more problematic than in Togo where warriors in the Jungle use rape as an act of war.

The fact is that University Campuses and most British towns, cities, villages etc. do not have as serious a rape problem as stated. In fact, even with a recent unfortunate national rise in the number of reported rapes, we are nowhere close to the 1500% increase.

Also, when students are offended to the point of rioting that people that they disapprove of are visiting their University to give a talk, that is another example of their feelings coming before facts. Even if they feel sad or feel victimised, that is raison d'etre to go crazy. It's not even people like Tommy Robinson (EDL not 2,4,6,8) and Nigel Farage who get threatened but Germaine Greer and Jenni Murray - far from being nasty right-wing people! Oh, but Islamic Hate Preachers are okay because 'we must practice tolereance and diversity'. A pity that diversity of thought is banned.

https://www.theguardian.com/...s-hate-speech-u-turn (strong and steady is more like browbeaten and chided here!)

If there is a cultural problem on University Campuses, then surely this needs looking at - after all, Universities are academic institutuions for the leaders of tomorrow, not the playground of a spoilt privileged white omnisexual whom identifies as a Unicorn.



This post just... well I am lost for words. This is why we need a Labour government as there are too many people with these views. Lets just hope rather than spread fear.
Actually I'm not sure no matter what your party affiliations are that you would want to align yourself with posts like this.
I'll keep it here because it's an opinion no matter how revolting


(This post was edited by steve walker on Jun 13, 2017, 11:50 PM)


007Dale
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Jun 13, 2017, 11:59 PM

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Post #1490 of 1627 (1953 views)
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Re: [steve walker] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It's not too different if I went into 30 key marginal seats and offered to pay all people aged 31-35 £9,000 a year for the next 3 years, if they voted for me, but clearly that would be illegal. And by the way, I'm going to take it off of those that already pay the most in tax.

Incidentally, you can't blame people for voting for that. I voted Tory, one of the reasons it that I am personally better off with a Tory PM than a Labour
PM. Just to be clear, I am selfish.

What grates a little is the sanctimonious clap trap that comes out from the left that they voted for the 'good of the many in the country', rather than those who vote Tory for personal gain of a few. How many Labour voters were enticed by free tuition and therefore personal gain? I have at least the decency to admit I voted in line with my own personal gain.

The danger we face with this kind of targeted, cash-for-votes policy is that it snowballs. Manifesto Decisions will be taken based on the needs of a few voters in 50-or-so marginal seats, rather than for the country as a whole.

One more thing on the tuition fees to remember, it was (as you said) brought in by a labour government and increased by a Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government. All three main parties have allowed the tuition Fees to get where we are today. The Liberal Democrates traded it for a vote on PR when forming the coalition. That's how much they valued the policy.


(This post was edited by 007Dale on Jun 14, 2017, 12:01 AM)


PaulC
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:16 AM

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Post #1491 of 1627 (1943 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's not too different if I went into 30 key marginal seats and offered to pay all people aged 31-35 £9,000 a year for the next 3 years, if they voted for me, but clearly that would be illegal. And by the way, I'm going to take it off of those that already pay the most in tax.

Incidentally, you can't blame people for voting for that. I voted Tory, one of the reasons it that I am personally better off with a Tory PM than a Labour
PM. Just to be clear, I am selfish.

What grates a little is the sanctimonious clap trap that comes out from the left that they voted for the 'good of the many in the country', rather than those who vote Tory for personal gain of a few. How many Labour voters were enticed by free tuition and therefore personal gain? I have at least the decency to admit I voted in line with my own personal gain.

The danger we face with this kind of targeted, cash-for-votes policy is that it snowballs. Manifesto Decisions will be taken based on the needs of a few voters in 50-or-so marginal seats, rather than for the country as a whole.

One more thing on the tuition fees to remember, it was (as you said) brought in by a labour government and increased by a Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government. All three main parties have allowed the tuition Fees to get where we are today. The Liberal Democrates traded it for a vote on PR when forming the coalition. That's how much they valued the policy.


The Tories increased the fees to their present level.

Scotland has managed fine in paying tuition fees centrally. No one considered the proposal to do this a "bribe". Plenty of people like me are happy to vote for a government which values university education, even if they will not benefit directly from the central payment of such fees. Some of us can actually see the bigger picture of the benefits to society rather than having the myopic "me me me" view of the world enjoyed by the Tories and their supporters.


steve walker
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:18 AM

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Post #1492 of 1627 (1941 views)
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Re: [007Dale] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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It's not too different if I went into 30 key marginal seats and offered to pay all people aged 31-35 £9,000 a year for the next 3 years, if they voted for me, but clearly that would be illegal. And by the way, I'm going to take it off of those that already pay the most in tax.

Incidentally, you can't blame people for voting for that. I voted Tory, one of the reasons it that I am personally better off with a Tory PM than a Labour
PM. Just to be clear, I am selfish.

What grates a little is the sanctimonious clap trap that comes out from the left that they voted for the 'good of the many in the country', rather than those who vote Tory for personal gain of a few. How many Labour voters were enticed by free tuition and therefore personal gain? I have at least the decency to admit I voted in line with my own personal gain.

The danger we face with this kind of targeted, cash-for-votes policy is that it snowballs. Manifesto Decisions will be taken based on the needs of a few voters in 50-or-so marginal seats, rather than for the country as a whole.

One more thing on the tuition fees to remember, it was (as you said) brought in by a labour government and increased by a Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government. All three main parties have allowed the tuition Fees to get where we are today. The Liberal Democrates traded it for a vote on PR when forming the coalition. That's how much they valued the policy.



Mr Dale I pointed out why it makes perfect sense both economically and financially to abolish tuition fees but you are conveniently ignoring the main part of that post that I called disgusting, not too dissimilar from the way your leaders avoid questions namely:

"There was a story about so-called 'Rape culture' on University Campuses in the UK with a reported 1500% rise since 2010. I believe it was actually in one of the Liberal newspapers, so possibly The Guardian.

Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition, this allegation would mean that every student on every campus would have been raped over 15 times in an academic year. It would be more problematic than in Togo where warriors in the Jungle use rape as an act of war. "

I have a daughter at University and I find that that really offensive.


PaulC
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:20 AM

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Post #1493 of 1627 (1939 views)
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There was a story about so-called 'Rape culture' on University Campuses in the UK with a reported 1500% rise since 2010. I believe it was actually in one of the Liberal newspapers, so possibly The Guardian.

Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition, this allegation would mean that every student on every campus would have been raped over 15 times in an academic year.


This is utter nonsense!


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:27 AM

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In Reply To
Dig a bit deeper online, Paul, plenty of examples about students being 'triggered' by micro-aggressions and shouting down people for being homophobic, racist, xenophobic etc. when they aren't.

There was a story about so-called 'Rape culture' on University Campuses in the UK with a reported 1500% rise since 2010. I believe it was actually in one of the Liberal newspapers, so possibly The Guardian.

Ignoring the mathematical fact that you cannot have more than 100% by definition, this allegation would mean that every student on every campus would have been raped over 15 times in an academic year. It would be more problematic than in Togo where warriors in the Jungle use rape as an act of war.

The fact is that University Campuses and most British towns, cities, villages etc. do not have as serious a rape problem as stated. In fact, even with a recent unfortunate national rise in the number of reported rapes, we are nowhere close to the 1500% increase.

Also, when students are offended to the point of rioting that people that they disapprove of are visiting their University to give a talk, that is another example of their feelings coming before facts. Even if they feel sad or feel victimised, that is raison d'etre to go crazy. It's not even people like Tommy Robinson (EDL not 2,4,6,8) and Nigel Farage who get threatened but Germaine Greer and Jenni Murray - far from being nasty right-wing people! Oh, but Islamic Hate Preachers are okay because 'we must practice tolereance and diversity'. A pity that diversity of thought is banned.

https://www.theguardian.com/...s-hate-speech-u-turn (strong and steady is more like browbeaten and chided here!)

If there is a cultural problem on University Campuses, then surely this needs looking at - after all, Universities are academic institutuions for the leaders of tomorrow, not the playground of a spoilt privileged white omnisexual whom identifies as a Unicorn.



This post just... well I am lost for words. This is why we need a Labour government as there are too many people with these views. Lets just hope rather than spread fear.
Actually I'm not sure no matter what your party affiliations are that you would want to align yourself with posts like this.
I'll keep it here because it's an opinion no matter how revolting


Please explain how it is revolting then Steve.

I'll tell you what is revolting - the fact that Academia has been turned into a joke by liberal safe-space cry-babies whom demand conformity.

The words 'homophobic', 'racist' and 'xenophobic' have been used as dumb-dumb bullets by what I refer to as Generation Snowflake or the more wider term used is 'Social Justice Warriors'. These people use the above phrases to shut down arguments and debates - if somebody doesn't agree with their point of view then ergo they must be one of the above even if they are not. Hollow out a word, bash people around the head with it and get them to conform.

This only hurts the real victims of racism and homophobia - people I know personally have either been physically attacked or been called derogatory terms which I won't mention here.

As for the Rape Culture story, well it exists online. It obviously is NOT true, but people (especially the young) can be influenced into believing that it is true - throw enough mud and some of it will stick.

If the thing about Islamic Hate Preachers was the thing that offended you, Steve, then I'm sorry but it is true - Universities did invite these people to talk, and any protest against it was deemed as 'right-wing' and therefore 'offensive'. Nothing I can do about that.

I suppose that in the best interests of debate and discord that somebody could say 'oh well you have to listen without prejudice' but when a genuinely offensive and potentially dangerous person is openly allowed to speak openly and a liberal feminist like Germaine Greer or Jenni Murray is hounded out by 'triggered' students then something is truly rotten. For the record, I disagree with both hate preaching and I don't always agree with Jenni, but I know which one is the most harmful to humanity and he does not present Women's Hour!

We have got to get back to something like normality, and if people like me have 'wrong' or 'hurtful' beliefs then quite frankly it's tough. The left has blocked anything other than what it wants to hear, so do not be surprised when people think 'balls to that, I have the right in a democratic society to not believe their BS.' You have reaped what you have sown, and now your chickens are coming home to roost - twice in a year, people like myself have voted against people like you and twice we have won.

I personally find the uber-liberal views of certain people here similarly revolting, and so maybe that is why we need to move society more to the Right. Just saying like, in the name of tolerance and diversity.


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:32 AM

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Post #1495 of 1627 (1930 views)
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

It is nonsense, as the figure by The Guardian or whichever liberal rag published it is totally wrong and anybody with a brain-cell would know that there is no rape Culture on UK University Campuses.

It was just another story to make women, in particular, feel more vulnerable around men (99% of whom would never ever rape a person).

However, if certain news outlets promote it as the truth, then I can understand why students would be shocked (unless they researched the figures and what was said). The same applies to the Daily Mail with their similarly false stories - get enough people to accept it as a fact and our work is done.


steve walker
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:39 AM

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Post #1496 of 1627 (1922 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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This post just... well I am lost for words. This is why we need a Labour government as there are too many people with these views. Lets just hope rather than spread fear.
Actually I'm not sure no matter what your party affiliations are that you would want to align yourself with posts like this.
I'll keep it here because it's an opinion no matter how revolting


Please explain how it is revolting then Steve.

I'll tell you what is revolting - the fact that Academia has been turned into a joke by liberal safe-space cry-babies whom demand conformity.

The words 'homophobic', 'racist' and 'xenophobic' have been used as dumb-dumb bullets by what I refer to as Generation Snowflake or the more wider term used is 'Social Justice Warriors'. These people use the above phrases to shut down arguments and debates - if somebody doesn't agree with their point of view then ergo they must be one of the above even if they are not. Hollow out a word, bash people around the head with it and get them to conform.

This only hurts the real victims of racism and homophobia - people I know personally have either been physically attacked or been called derogatory terms which I won't mention here.

As for the Rape Culture story, well it exists online. It obviously is NOT true, but people (especially the young) can be influenced into believing that it is true - throw enough mud and some of it will stick.

If the thing about Islamic Hate Preachers was the thing that offended you, Steve, then I'm sorry but it is true - Universities did invite these people to talk, and any protest against it was deemed as 'right-wing' and therefore 'offensive'. Nothing I can do about that.

I suppose that in the best interests of debate and discord that somebody could say 'oh well you have to listen without prejudice' but when a genuinely offensive and potentially dangerous person is openly allowed to speak openly and a liberal feminist like Germaine Greer or Jenni Murray is hounded out by 'triggered' students then something is truly rotten. For the record, I disagree with both hate preaching and I don't always agree with Jenni, but I know which one is the most harmful to humanity and he does not present Women's Hour!

We have got to get back to something like normality, and if people like me have 'wrong' or 'hurtful' beliefs then quite frankly it's tough. The left has blocked anything other than what it wants to hear, so do not be surprised when people think 'balls to that, I have the right in a democratic society to not believe their BS.' You have reaped what you have sown, and now your chickens are coming home to roost - twice in a year, people like myself have voted against people like you and twice we have won.

I personally find the uber-liberal views of certain people here similarly revolting, and so maybe that is why we need to move society more to the Right. Just saying like, in the name of tolerance and diversity.



Well I am very happy to explain why it's revolting.

The fact that you quote the 'rape story' in a post and then only when challenged follow it up with oh it's not really true, As if that makes it okay.

The 'left' haven't blocked anything, you people control 80% of the media but really your time is up now, There are media sources that you can't control which must be so hurtful. Keep posting, you do more to move that swingometer into the red than I could ever do :)


Ronsdog
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Re: [PaulC] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Exactly that, acmold.

Still, all we seem to hear from Auntie Beeb and co. is about how godawful things are for the young folk. The older generations can do one.


Not at all. See how much the media (even the Tory press) hated the Government's proposals to end the "triple lock" and for what was dubbed the "dementia tax"

A lot of what is now the middle-aged group (including me) were able to pay into index-linked, final salary pension schemes way beyond what is available to the younger generation these days.


The post-war baby boomers (of which I am one) have been the most fortunate generation. We have been cossetted and still are.

As students - no university tuition fees plus a grant sufficient to live off comfortably. No need to work to fund our studies.
index-linked final salary occupational pensions
triple-locked state pensions at 60/65
free bus travel within Scotland
1/3 off rail travel within the region
winter heating allowance
half price at football matches(!)

In retirement, from pensions, the missus and I each receive after tax more than the average wage pre-tax.... and a mortgage paid off decades ago. Life's one long holiday.

A large proportion of the baby boomers have never had it so good - yet they choose to vote for the party of personal greed.

http://cloud.highcharts.com/show/oxufehu

It makes me laugh when people talk about the "bribe" of no tuition fees for students in England and how it is unaffordable. Scotland made that choice long ago. It's all about priorities. Same with free prescriptions. In England 90% of prescriptions are already dispensed free of charge - why is there no political will to extend that to everyone?

I think it's possibly dawning on people in England that the Tory policy of austerity was never intended to solve economic problems - it's intention was to destroy social welfare and social services just as they are hellbent on destroying the NHS and handing it over the spivs and wide boys of private health care..

Thank goodness Corbyn has made people realise it doesn't have to be like that.


The generation debate conveniently misses out one overriding factor. TAXATION.

Basic income tax back in the seventies was 35% to which could be added 5.5% NHI.
Over 40p in every earned pound was handed over to the exchequer.

So I would contend that the baby boomer generation more than paid for their 'free education' and all the other benefits that they now currently enjoy.

In today's economic climate those rates are unthinkable.
Rates have reduced by some 40+% since.

Only the Lib Dems were honest in the recent election. If we demand services then we must pay for them.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...ousehold-income.html


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 14, 2017, 12:51 AM

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Re: [steve walker] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Changing what I said, how sad. It was your liberal media which posted that there was a Rape Culture on University Campuses.

No, Steve, the momentum is very much towards the right as people like myself have had enough of idiots talking down to us and expecting us to conform to their low standards and to not have any other opinion than their own BS rhetoric echo-chamber. Not everybody wants to be like you, so get over it, you aren't that important. What are you going to do if I don't agree with you? Throw a tantrum? Ban me from the Forum? It would just show that you cannot tolerate nor debate a person with another point of view (no matter to you how repulsive or sickening), and I would be laughing even more than I am now.

Those days have gone and your attempts to label anybody as racist, xenophobic, homophobic etc. don't work anymore. We just don't care, we don't agree with you and when it comes to cast our vote we will vote against you.

Similarly, you and the other liberal echo-chambers here do everything to keep my swingometer firmly against bigots like yourself. Laugh


steve walker
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Post #1499 of 1627 (1903 views)
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Re: [MrTangerineMan] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


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Changing what I said, how sad. It was your liberal media which posted that there was a Rape Culture on University Campuses.

No, Steve, the momentum is very much towards the right as people like myself have had enough of idiots talking down to us and expecting us to conform to their low standards and to not have any other opinion than their own BS rhetoric echo-chamber. Not everybody wants to be like you, so get over it, you aren't that important. What are you going to do if I don't agree with you? Throw a tantrum? Ban me from the Forum? It would just show that you cannot tolerate nor debate a person with another point of view (no matter to you how repulsive or sickening), and I would be laughing even more than I am now.

Those days have gone and your attempts to label anybody as racist, xenophobic, homophobic etc. don't work anymore. We just don't care, we don't agree with you and when it comes to cast our vote we will vote against you.

Similarly, you and the other liberal echo-chambers here do everything to keep my swingometer firmly against bigots like yourself. Laugh



I didn't change what you said. I left the post there so everyone can see.

Okay lets gets off the personal stuff shall we and back onto debating the politics in a politics thread.

I would say that the momentum is very much not towards the right judging on the last election result. I'm not sure how you describe a Tory / DUP agreement, most of even the Tory supporting press have not been too complimentary but doesn't really matter, it won't last more than a few months. I would say weeks but Parliament is in recess for two months July - September.

Thankfully people have woken up to the fact that it really doesn't have to be this way. There really is an alternative. It just won't go down well with Murdoch, Rothmere, etc but they can't control the internet thank goodness.


MrTangerineMan
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Jun 14, 2017, 1:54 AM

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Re: [steve walker] Shock General Election Called [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yeah, whatever. A nice attempt at browbeating.

You don't get off that easy, Steve.

Aha, I have found the link to the Rape Culture story: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/...-over-rape-2frc75d6q

Yes, these students are so trustworthy they are not even willing to have their names reported. Then the entire wretched piece was deemed worthy of an editorial calling for compulsory sex education of course!

First, a conspiracy means an agreement, and is this case The Times is alleging that people at Durham – students, administrators, professors, the entire bunch, we don’t know – have agreed to keep silent over what the editorial later calls a ‘rape culture.’

Now, a rape culture is where rape is occurring systematically and repeatedly and is tolerated and perhaps facilitated by those in authority to an extent that a substantial group of women are victims and a substantial number of the men are perpetrators who go unpunished. This is quite a serious allegation to make against Durham University.

On what evidence does the Times make such a serious allegation?

Quote: In the wake of the verdict, (a third trial which cleared a male student of rape) students interviewed by The Times claimed that a cocktail of privilege and alcohol has created a conspiracy of silence at the university, with assaults on female students hushed up to protect the alleged attackers’ reputations. The students, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that the majority of alleged incidents had been fuelled by drinking.

It continues: “I know two girls who were raped while at university and one who was sexually assaulted while at a ball,” said one doctoral student, who also studied there at undergraduate level. “One of the girls who was raped said that her friends told her, ‘You can’t report it, it will ruin his life’.

So let’s break this apart. At Durham University, because students are privileged there is an agreement at the university that all should remain silent when women are assaulted ‘to protect the attackers’ reputation’.

This is a based on a quote from a student who was never assaulted herself but knows two girls who were. This student was willing to be quoted but only anonymously. She seems so afraid of conditions at Durham that she not only did she complete her undergraduate course there, but is completing a doctorate also.

The conspiracy of silence seems to be based on the fact that friends of one of the girls, who was allegedly raped, told her not to report it. To be clear, the quote of ‘You can’t report it’ comes not from the “anonymous source”, or the girl who was allegedly raped, but her friend. So third hand, I do believe at this stage.

This is another gem: One second-year student said that once a man had failed to show up to university, citing “family issues”. Yet the student said those who knew the man from home claimed that he was involved in an alleged incident, locking himself in the bedroom of a girl who “has a boyfriend and doesn’t want [the alleged incident] to come out”.

So we have a second-year student (student 1) who once knew of someone (bad man) who did not show up to university. But this student 1 is relying on ‘those who knew this bad man from home’ to say said bad man was involved in an incident. Got that?

This is hearsay upon hearsay upon utterly rubbish reporting and the dog once ate my homework, or in this case the journalists’ crappy notes.

It goes on: In November, police figures showed that 463 sex attacks had been reported by female university students at 70 leading institutions in the past two years. Rape crisis groups say that the true number will have been far higher as many cases go unreported.

463 sex attacks? Gosh that sounds like a lot. But hang on, that is over 2 years, and at 70 leading universities. Even if we say there are an average of 20,000 students at these universities, and half that for the gender split that is 463 attacks per 700,000 female students. Still 463 too many, but nothing like the shocking figures quoted.

In fact, 'of the country’s most well regarded universities — Durham and Oxford — had the largest number of recorded rape and sex assault allegations, with 36 incidents at each.'

Oxford has 26,000 students in total in 2014/15 and Durham has 17,000. Even if we crudely divide it in 2 to take gender into account that is 36 incidents across a female population of 21,500. There have been 36 attacks on 21,500 female students. I guess that is the conspiracy of silence for you!

This is the worst kind of gender slander against young male university students. No other group in society would put up with being called a bunch of rapists.

The piece ends with this nonsense: Despite the university’s efforts, some students remain unconvinced. One master’s student said that she was “touched up in my sleep” by a male friend. Petrified, she pretended not to be awake.

I guess we are not even to ask how these two students came to be in the same bed together – I assume there was a bed involved. Did he jump through her window or follow her home and force himself in the door, or did they both get drunk and go home together and go to bed together? Don’t ask that question people – just move along.

The problem of perceived 'Rape Culture', 'Racism' and 'Homophobia' only exists in University to pay Diversity Officers for being there - the more problems, the more Officers need to be employed and hence the ever-higher Student debts. Plus these hurt real victims - look at the woman involved in the Ched Evans court case and how her false claim has affected this problem as an example. If a University has zero issues of Racism, Homophobia etc. then it does not need to employ these Officers on big salaries - ironically, a Racism and Homophobia-free society is the last thing these Lefties need as there is no profit in peace.

The 1500% figure is not mentioned in The Times, as I found out, but relates to alleged figures on College Campuses in the USA. Surely enough to scare students into demanding more protection and Diversity Officers even if the University is using Students as 'Cash Cow's' (a phrase I've heard a few times with regard to Blackpool FC) and when these Officers starting salary is $250k it pays to have 'problems' even if some of these have to be created in order to justify their position.

The TL:DR is that unless the left begin to say 'okay, we have gone too far with some liberals and they have ruined the arguments for us' then people are going to be put off. It is time to play fairly.

I hope that common sense prevails and instead of just shouting down one side of the argument that we realise there are just as many idiots on our side: for every Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farage you will get a White-hating lefty bigot or a person who demands a person be arrested for triggering them.

If the Left wish to remain as the leaders of society, the morally superior and cultural leaders then fine, but the onus is on you to change and attract people because you are above blame and reproach. You need to do the hard-work; the Right are all manner of horrible things so they don't have to do too much as nobody expects them to. There are no surprises when they do not conform to high standards, but heaven for-fend a Lefty/Liberal whom does not.

Actually, IF you wish to be morally superior and better than Jesus can you refrain from tunnelling under and hollowing out your moral high ground? Just that as you can smell our hypocrisy, we can smell yours. So take on those dragging the left down and build a Movement Wink worth voting for. Take on the issues of people being threatened at University for not being 'on the Left' or 'conforming to how they should' - Diversity includes diversity of thought and this should be encouraged (although not to extremes). You never know, by actually dealing with the trouble-making Snowflakes and restoring some sort of normality in society you might even gain a majority next time around.

Or, the Right will continue to vote against you and you will keep wondering why you can't win. You are preventing yourself from winning by your attitudes and until you drop the 'we are always right' nonsense that won't change. Just as there are glaring holes on the Right so there are on the Left, but the default line is 'that's unfair, how dare you criticise us'. You want to call people out on BS, great, but do not be surprised when yours is called out.

Thus concludes War & Peace, I await my Website Ban Steve - I know you're gagging to do it so get it over and done with.

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