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Border out of control

 

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dottirofhod
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Sep 6, 2015, 3:42 AM

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ps...ever heard of Kinder Transport.


==================================================




''Part of the problem is that, after years of record immigration, many British people seem unwilling to accept any more. There is also a feeling that the rich benefit from migration, and that the poor pay the brunt. Refugees tend to be dumped in poorer areas such as east Kent rather than Highgate, while the wealthy and articulate get to display their virtue by condemning their compatriots for being xenophobic.
One way Britain might be willing to take more Syrians is through a voluntary Kindertransport scheme. That is, individuals can sign up to put up refugees in their house, or to help support them financially, to pay for any education and health insurance; maybe for one year or two. That way taxpayers would not need to support any Syrian refugee''.




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Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 9:01 AM

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Further chaos in Calais last night with Eurostar passengers being trapped for hoursCrazy

Trapped for hours then sent back to LSPFrown


Poor loves......get a sense of perspective FFS


Your point being...................??


Simply this......the inconvenience of a few travellers pales into insignificance alongside the tide of human misery that has been ignored by Northern European countries. Ask the Italians and Greeks, who have struggled to care for refugees from the Middle East, whilst the rest of Europe has to date turned a blind eye, for the better part of a decade.

The course of European history is changing and we wring our hands.......a sad sad indictment of the European Union. Legal or illegal, it make no difference, these people are fleeing for their lives from a region that the great powers have abandoned.

Shameful behaviour on the part of our 'leaders'.


Oh for pitys sake, I'll have the violins out in a minute
Mad

The shameful behaviour is by the EU encouraging this madness!


Compassion not high on your list of must have emotions then, hey
Isaac?

As regards the shameful behaviour by 'our leaders' I would include the EU amongst other governmental bodies and that encompasses the UN.
I would contend that this current crisis is only a symptom of of a much greater and wider world issue. Two events could well define this century 9/11 and the Great Crash of 2007. We are now seeing the playing out of the mix of both.

This is not simply the UKs problem or for that matter a pan European issue but a situation that demands the attention and action by the current Politico-Managerial Class that currently run the world show.

Hate to be alarmist but the seeds of massive conflict are being liberally sown throughout many countries in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe...........parallels?

ps...ever heard of Kinder Transport Isaac? Wink


I've plenty of compassion for those who deserve it.

Have you no compassion for the thousands of ex servicemen who are living in poverty? Charity begins at home!


windydcfc
Man City Transfer Target!


Sep 6, 2015, 10:03 AM

Posts: 10242
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Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

Post #428 of 626 (3568 views)
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http://www.theguardian.com/...urneys-end-for-aylan


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Sep 6, 2015, 10:04 AM)


HantsLondoner
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Sep 6, 2015, 11:57 AM

Posts: 2759
Location: South Hampshire
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We've now moved, quite rightly, from discussing people coming into the UK from other EU countries to potentially lots of refugees coming in from the Middle East.

Two entirely different discussions.

We all have our opinions, and like it or not, a large number of UK citizens will share Isaac's view.
I happen not to, but I'm intrigued, and concerned, to see how it works in practice....

The UK economy and society is not geared up to an infux of many thousands of extra people. That has been shown with the (relatively few, spread over several years) people coming in from EU countries. The government's austerity measures have already pared our infrastructure to the bone (and beyond)..

The current government has shown itself to be: hostile to 'immigrants' of any kind; incapable of organising the UK to handle the numbers of people coming in, partly because of their obsession with repaying the debt, causing all sorts of social tensions; and who are now showing a grudging willingness, after a lot of pressure, to accept refugees.

How are they going to organise it? Given that they probably can't (and don't really want to, anyway), is there sufficient will/cash/organisers outside the government to make this happen? How long do we expect the refugees to be here? Therefore how much effort to we make to integrate them into UK society (which the government has clearly failed to do with EU people)?

Kindertransport, as I understand it, was initially for 10000 people. As the name implies, for children. Some of them had relatives in the UK already, the Jewish community here obviously helped a lot, although a lot of non-Jewish people helped too. Comparing that to the current situation is therefore probably not very useful.

Unfortunately I have no solutions, just questions. I wonder what Cameron has thought about what he has agreed to yet. Probably not, on past form.



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Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 12:49 PM

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Post #430 of 626 (3509 views)
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We've now moved, quite rightly, from discussing people coming into the UK from other EU countries to potentially lots of refugees coming in from the Middle East.

Two entirely different discussions.

We all have our opinions, and like it or not, a large number of UK citizens will share Isaac's view.
I happen not to, but I'm intrigued, and concerned, to see how it works in practice....

The UK economy and society is not geared up to an infux of many thousands of extra people. That has been shown with the (relatively few, spread over several years) people coming in from EU countries. The government's austerity measures have already pared our infrastructure to the bone (and beyond)..

The current government has shown itself to be: hostile to 'immigrants' of any kind; incapable of organising the UK to handle the numbers of people coming in, partly because of their obsession with repaying the debt, causing all sorts of social tensions; and who are now showing a grudging willingness, after a lot of pressure, to accept refugees.

How are they going to organise it? Given that they probably can't (and don't really want to, anyway), is there sufficient will/cash/organisers outside the government to make this happen? How long do we expect the refugees to be here? Therefore how much effort to we make to integrate them into UK society (which the government has clearly failed to do with EU people)?

Kindertransport, as I understand it, was initially for 10000 people. As the name implies, for children. Some of them had relatives in the UK already, the Jewish community here obviously helped a lot, although a lot of non-Jewish people helped too. Comparing that to the current situation is therefore probably not very useful.

Unfortunately I have no solutions, just questions. I wonder what Cameron has thought about what he has agreed to yet. Probably not, on past form.


Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today, there is also the logistical issues of today which presumably weren't such a problem back then?


coops
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Sep 6, 2015, 2:32 PM

Posts: 1164
Location: Black Country
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Post #431 of 626 (3485 views)
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I've plenty of compassion for those who deserve it.

Have you no compassion for the thousands of ex servicemen who are living in poverty? Charity begins at home!


Why does it have to be one or the other?
The government could easily take care of homeless ex-servicemen as well as helping out in this humanitarian crisis. Two wrongs don't make a right. We are all human beings right? Or are they lesser human beings because they aren't the same as you?


Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 3:26 PM

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Post #432 of 626 (3460 views)
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I've plenty of compassion for those who deserve it.

Have you no compassion for the thousands of ex servicemen who are living in poverty? Charity begins at home!


Why does it have to be one or the other?
The government could easily take care of homeless ex-servicemen as well as helping out in this humanitarian crisis. Two wrongs don't make a right. We are all human beings right? Or are they lesser human beings because they aren't the same as you?


I assume you're familiar with the phrase about charity beginning at home? There are many people living rough in the UK, most of them don't have smartphones either unlike many migrants. And how is this our problem? How is it Europes problem anymore than it's the Arab countries problem? And why the sudden need to get out of Syria? The war has been going on there for years. And don't give me this "we're all human beings" crap, a British government should be putting British people first, obvious really I would have thought?


(This post was edited by Isaac on Sep 6, 2015, 3:44 PM)


jon b
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Sep 6, 2015, 5:00 PM

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Post #433 of 626 (3424 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 5:08 PM

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Post #434 of 626 (3414 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


windydcfc
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Sep 6, 2015, 5:25 PM

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Post #435 of 626 (3395 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



(This post was edited by windydcfc on Sep 6, 2015, 5:28 PM)


Steveb
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Sep 6, 2015, 5:26 PM

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Post #436 of 626 (3393 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Is "Isaac" some kind of parody account?




http://stevebthegroundhopper.blogspot.co.uk/




Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 5:52 PM

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Post #437 of 626 (3369 views)
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In Reply To
Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



I was obviously refering to the Jewish community in the UK


windydcfc
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Sep 6, 2015, 6:11 PM

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Post #438 of 626 (3354 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



I was obviously refering to the Jewish community in the UK

Why is it obvious?


jon b
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Sep 6, 2015, 6:54 PM

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Post #439 of 626 (3327 views)
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In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



We're into dangerous territory if we take Jew=Israeli. We seem to have hate crime in the UK because of such a view.

As regards Israel's ready belligerence, that's scarcely surprising given what happened during the Holocaust. They know what happens if they don't fight for themselves. And, given their not so happy go lucky neighbours, if they lose once, it's Goodnight Vienna for them.


windydcfc
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Sep 6, 2015, 7:24 PM

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Post #440 of 626 (3306 views)
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In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



We're into dangerous territory if we take Jew=Israeli. We seem to have hate crime in the UK because of such a view.

As regards Israel's ready belligerence, that's scarcely surprising given what happened during the Holocaust. They know what happens if they don't fight for themselves. And, given their not so happy go lucky neighbours, if they lose once, it's Goodnight Vienna for them.

I'm sure the millions of displaced Palestinians, caused by the creation of the Zionist Jewish state of Israel. Might feel they've got a reason to fight for the right to go back to there homeland. It wasn't as though they were to blame for the holocaust. In fact it's our countries fault that the state actually exists.
I wasn't saying that Jews=Israeli's. But that country exists because of that religion & Isaac mentioned that Jews were peaceful & law abiding. I was just pointing out that this isn't the case in the militaristic state of Israel & that is a Jewish State!


(This post was edited by windydcfc on Sep 6, 2015, 7:29 PM)


Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 8:14 PM

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Post #441 of 626 (3270 views)
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today


Unfortunately, I don't think we had much sympathy for the Jews until we found out about the "Final Solution" which was well into WW2.

I suspect it's difficult for a young person today to imagine the sea change in attitudes to Jews/Blacks/Gays/Women's Rights that's taken place over recent decades.

A lot of casual, ingrained prejudice was the norm. And I don't pretend that I'd have been any better if I'd lived in those times.

My understanding is that pre WW2 there was a great deal of anti Semitism here just as there was in the rest of europe. The grasping Jew/Christ-killer tag was not just a German phenomenon. When I read John Buchan's novel "The 39 Steps" some years ago I was taken aback by the casual anti semitism and racism, something the Robert Donat and Kenneth More films had carefully avoided.


In my experience Jews are very peaceful and law abiding people but the same cannot be said about many muslims


Really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/...ars_involving_Israel
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/...vp4scCFYvpwgodsHQDMw



I was obviously refering to the Jewish community in the UK

Why is it obvious?


I was talking about people who are happy to integrate, anyway it's a bit academic because there is simply not the infrastructure to cope with large numbers of migrants regardless of whether they are nice people or not.


buncranaboy
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Sep 6, 2015, 9:17 PM

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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today, there is also the logistical issues of today which presumably weren't such a problem back then?



Once again, unsurprisingly, Comical Isaac has his own made-up version of history.

There was great reluctance to accept Jews fleeing the Nazi's as it was thought they might be covert Nazi's themselves. As well as being Jewish Christ-killers of course.
I'm told attitudes toward Jews in Catholic Ireland was even worse!


(This post was edited by buncranaboy on Sep 6, 2015, 9:19 PM)


Isaac
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Sep 6, 2015, 9:47 PM

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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today, there is also the logistical issues of today which presumably weren't such a problem back then?



Once again, unsurprisingly, Comical Isaac has his own made-up version of history.

There was great reluctance to accept Jews fleeing the Nazi's as it was thought they might be covert Nazi's themselves. As well as being Jewish Christ-killers of course.
I'm told attitudes toward Jews in Catholic Ireland was even worse!


Ok I'll bow to your superior knowledge, it was a bit before my time and you're obviously a lot older than me


buncranaboy
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Sep 6, 2015, 10:00 PM

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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today, there is also the logistical issues of today which presumably weren't such a problem back then?



Once again, unsurprisingly, Comical Isaac has his own made-up version of history.

There was great reluctance to accept Jews fleeing the Nazi's as it was thought they might be covert Nazi's themselves. As well as being Jewish Christ-killers of course.
I'm told attitudes toward Jews in Catholic Ireland was even worse!


Ok I'll bow to your superior knowledge, it was a bit before my time and you're obviously a lot older than me


I doubt that I'm much older than you, merely wiser and less likely to base any opinion I have on Channel 5 fly-on-the wall "documentaries" or their ilk.


Mr. T
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Regarding kindertransport the Jews were seen in a totally different light to the way Muslims are seen today...


Correct, actually, though perhaps not in the way you meant it.

As buncranaboy and jon b have pointed out, there was real prejudice back then, yet what were they scared of? The kindertransport campaign brought just 10,000 Jewish children to the UK. We now have more than two million Muslims in the UK, they are certainly not all children, and fear of their presence in such numbers is not irrational.




In Reply To
...there is also the logistical issues of today which presumably weren't such a problem back then?


Back to front.

Getting 10,000 children out of Germany required emergency legislation, great organisation and the agreement of the Nazi government. All this happened in the nine months or so before the declaration of war; after that, transportations stopped.

Today, thanks to modern transport, telecommunications, friendly human rights and benefits advisers, and helpful traffickers, 'migrants' can travel thousands of miles across the world unhindered for large parts of their journey. That they wish to risk their lives and those of their wives and children, along with large sums of money, for a part of that journey does not necessarily make it a heroic one.


Isaac
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Apparently there are 79 countries on this planet that are bigger than the UK yet only 21 of them have more people than the UK, says it all really!


windydcfc
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Apparently there are 79 countries on this planet that are bigger than the UK yet only 21 of them have more people than the UK, says it all really!
Of those 79 countries, what is the percentage of habitable land? How many of them are war zones? If you are talking about the migrants & refugees, then how many of these 79 countries are realistically in reach for them?



Sarumio
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Apparently there are 79 countries on this planet that are bigger than the UK yet only 21 of them have more people than the UK, says it all really!
Of those 79 countries, what is the percentage of habitable land? How many of them are war zones? If you are talking about the migrants & refugees, then how many of these 79 countries are realistically in reach for them?



Well there's the obvious country with plenty of room spare thats not too far from the war zone, and a hell of a lot closer to get to and easier to get to than the UK - and it happens to be the largest country in the World....


windydcfc
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Sep 7, 2015, 9:56 AM

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Location: Barnetby
Team(s): Derby County FC England Borussia Mönchengladbach

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Apparently there are 79 countries on this planet that are bigger than the UK yet only 21 of them have more people than the UK, says it all really!
Of those 79 countries, what is the percentage of habitable land? How many of them are war zones? If you are talking about the migrants & refugees, then how many of these 79 countries are realistically in reach for them?



Well there's the obvious country with plenty of room spare thats not too far from the war zone, and a hell of a lot closer to get to and easier to get to than the UK - and it happens to be the largest country in the World....

Maybe so! But that country is supporting Assad & isn't renowned for looking after its own Muslim population!


dottirofhod
Man City Transfer Target!


Sep 7, 2015, 10:06 AM

Posts: 13342
Location: The North. 'Ich hassen lehm kopfs'
Team(s): Crewe Alex and obviously England.(Unlike a lot on here)

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Well there's the obvious country with plenty of room spare thats not too far from the war zone, and a hell of a lot closer to get to and easier to get to than the UK - and it happens to be the largest country in the World....

Maybe so! But that country is supporting Assad & isn't renowned for looking after its own Muslim population!
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Looking after itself as well with a naval base at Tartus and an air traffic control centre at Latakia.




July 1, 2018 to June 30,2019 = 278 /236 / 42 (You know my rules) @ 24 / 06 / 2019.
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