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Home: Non-League Football: Restructuring:
Step 4 2012-13

 

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Scottie
Youth Team Star


May 24, 2012, 11:46 AM

Posts: 298
Location: Creasey Park
Team(s): Dunstable Town

Post #426 of 457 (4958 views)
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Re: [blackdouglas] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

All this talk of reprieves does make me smile.

Instead of the FA rewarding failure by giving them to clubs who struggle every year, why not give the spare slots to successful teams from Step 5.

For example, a team that perhaps finished 2nd in the SSMFL. Wink



To The Regiment. I Wish I Was There



(This post was edited by Scottie on May 24, 2012, 11:47 AM)


exile
Junior Team Regular

May 24, 2012, 12:10 PM

Posts: 35
Location: kendal
Team(s):

Post #427 of 457 (4919 views)
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Re: [HarryC] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
In a statement from Wroxham, they have said the will only accept the promotion to step 4 if they are placed in Ryman One North. If, one rumour they heard is true, FA were to place them in NPL One South, then they would decline the promotion as they have not budgeted for the longer travel distance in that division. Ryman would seem most logical (to us), but it is the FA, so could still be something for Bridlington to look out for.


When a round trip to Market Drayton comes in at 440 miles you can see their point


Jon
Junior Team Regular

May 24, 2012, 12:57 PM

Posts: 51
Location:
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Post #428 of 457 (4844 views)
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Re: [exile] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Rumours of King's Lynn and Wroxham going into the NPL1S are mind boggling.

It's not just the distance of the journeys which is a problem, it's the roads you travel on! We at Coalville played at King's Lynn in the Vase and, although it was only ~80 miles, the absence of East-West motorways meant it took 2-2.5 hours. I certainly wouldn't envy King's Lynn or Wroxham if they were making such trips, and some considerably longer trips, on an almost weekly basis to play in front of crowds of ~150!

The NPL1S as is stands works loosely around the M1/M6 and as such travelling times, in my experience, are fairly good.


(This post was edited by Jon on May 24, 2012, 1:03 PM)


Mr. T
First Team Star

May 24, 2012, 1:06 PM

Posts: 2769
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Post #429 of 457 (4822 views)
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Re: [Jon] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Rumours of King's Lynn and Wroxham going into the NPL1S are mind boggling.

It's not just the distance of the journeys which is a problem, it's the roads you travel on!


The will to live begins to ebb on the long drags from Bourne and Peterborough to King's Lynn. However, a visit to Beers of Europe at Setchey offers some compensation.


(This post was edited by Mr. T on May 24, 2012, 1:48 PM)


The Amber Army
Youth Team Sub


May 24, 2012, 1:46 PM

Posts: 107
Location: New Mills, The High Peak, Derbyshire
Team(s): New Mills A.F.C. - The Mighty Millers!

Post #430 of 457 (4766 views)
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Re: [Scottie] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
All this talk of reprieves does make me smile.

Instead of the FA rewarding failure by giving them to clubs who struggle every year, why not give the spare slots to successful teams from Step 5.

For example, a team that perhaps finished 2nd in the SSMFL. Wink


I agree

About three years ago, Rossendale scored about 6 points all season and got reprieved where as a team like New Mills got 104 points and stayed at level 5.

About 18 months later Rossendale folded which was sad but inevitable.

I would rather see a club with ambition given a chance which would benefit the leagues at level 4 with a struggling club relegated to play at a level which wouldn't stretch their resources.

Runcorn Town for example are a club heading in the right direction but only just missed out on the final day of the season.

As things stand, failure gets rewarded.

I would stand by this, even if it meant my club being relegated for the benefit of someone more worthy.



Location of Church Lane

http://millers.freeforums.net/...ral&thread=44&page=1

For matchday updates on twitter try @newmillsafc or @DuncanHibbert


(This post was edited by The Amber Army on May 24, 2012, 1:51 PM)


petermiller36
Reserve Team Regular

May 24, 2012, 3:25 PM

Posts: 585
Location:
Team(s): AFC Wimbledon & St Neots Town & Ware FC

Post #431 of 457 (4663 views)
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Re: [The Amber Army] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I do take those points, but if your system was implemented then a club like Hinckley could argue that they're being punished for a club like Kettering Town in the same division spending silly and going broke (I'm not saying that's what happened, just playing DA).

The FA are making changes to make this of an issue with a rule that the bottom club will always get relegated, no matter how many spaces. But I don't they'd promote a club in order to make up the space.



Step 4 and 5 Spreadsheet: http://bit.ly/2013step4and5

T: @petermiller36


alderman friend
Junior Team Star

May 24, 2012, 4:25 PM

Posts: 68
Location:
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Post #432 of 457 (4597 views)
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Re: [exile] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
In a statement from Wroxham, they have said the will only accept the promotion to step 4 if they are placed in Ryman One North. If, one rumour they heard is true, FA were to place them in NPL One South, then they would decline the promotion as they have not budgeted for the longer travel distance in that division. Ryman would seem most logical (to us), but it is the FA, so could still be something for Bridlington to look out for.


When a round trip to Market Drayton comes in at 440 miles you can see their point

same point that northern league clubs are reluctand to take promotion.


Slumming It
Reserve Team Regular


May 24, 2012, 4:52 PM

Posts: 640
Location: Surbiton
Team(s): Leeds United, Rawmarsh Welfare (RIP)

Post #433 of 457 (4553 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

edit.......




http://slummingitgroundhooper.wordpress.com/


Last new ground: Wimborne-Cuthbury

Steps 1-4 are a duty, step 5 to be hoped for and steps 6-whatever are an occasional option.

(This post was edited by Slumming It on May 24, 2012, 5:23 PM)


Mr. T
First Team Star

May 24, 2012, 7:54 PM

Posts: 2769
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Post #434 of 457 (4407 views)
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Re: [Slumming It] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
edit.......


Was there something you wanted to say?


RRYFS
Reserve Team Star


May 24, 2012, 10:12 PM

Posts: 934
Location: Poole
Team(s): Leicester City, AFC Bournemouth, Hamworthy United

Post #435 of 457 (4253 views)
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Re: [Mr. T] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am still disappointed that the Wessex won't get a club from above yet again this season (as the last club to come down goes back up again), but at least Fleet have been reprieved as a club in their league has withdrawn. It is also good that Brading should be reprieved, so I can have another go to get there - I've failed in two seasons so far, including a wet Saturday touring the IOW by bus! What is nonsense, adds to the geographical disparities, rewards consistent failure and makes the Non League System look ridiculous in the eyes of the non fan is the ppg system of spreading reprieves around the country. It may be fair, but it is patently stupid. If a club drops out of (or is stupidly expelled from) a league, then that league and its feeders are the only ones who should be affected. We are not the only league who keep supplying their better clubs upwards and get nothing back, but if you look where they are, its not surprising that the southward drift continues.


Mister TwoU
First Team Sub


May 25, 2012, 12:27 AM

Posts: 1166
Location: Bo'ness
Team(s): Cowdenbeath

Post #436 of 457 (4140 views)
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Re: [RRYFS] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or

It's in the nature of the beast, but I agree it can seem ridiculous. That's because the system used doesn't go all the way down. It stops at step 4, meaning that whichever step 5 leagues end up with a vacancy, they're stuck with it.
After 2012-13 season it may get shifted down a level or two, if what I've gleaned of current F.A. plans is true.

It's a fact that the higher the level of football you go, the less chance there is of an irregular vacancy arising in a division, and obviously vice versa applies the lower you go. (I know someone's going to mention unsustainable FL clubs here, but forthis discussion, I'm happily ignoring them. lol.).
Whatever, eventually you go down enough layers and irregular vacancies begin to occur, which means that it is logical to expect a cumulatively larger number of these becoming servicable the deeper down you look. The whole thing's a system where it's inevitable that vacancies will arise above your team's level and definitely not the opposite occurring. Therefore, there will always be a net drain upward.

Now, to me, pooling for these unexpected, inevitable vacancies is most logical. It ensures that no single area is super-depleted in a given season, doing what re-insurers do, which is spreading the risk. It might seem illogical at first blush, noting say, a south coast club at step 5 receiving a reprieve due to the shenanigans caused by a northern or midland club folding perhaps. Yet, over the long-term, that will eventually balance itself out - not perfectly (look at the cumulative totals for the draws of the various national lottery numbers for comparison), yet with smaller and smaller percentage variability as time goes on.

Unfortunately, as noted, it doesn't (yet) continue past step 4, which to my mind makes its apparent small negative side-effect rather more prominent than it really should be.

The other visible problem is that the beneficial aspects of pooling can become masked, because sometimes (as in this season's NP1N) in-division reprieves; which don't fit-in to my way of thought when there's also pooling happening alongside; get to cock things up. That just makes the whole thing neither fish nor fowl. Confusing.

Choose pooling or choose not-pooling, not some hybrid. And apply the same rules all the way down the pile.

Whichever of those three choices wins the day, there will always be room to argue its faults and champion one of the unpicked methods. But I'm not complaining. It gives us something to drivel on about all trough the close season doesn't it? Wink



Ut temporibus est cum diabolus accipit renes

Still the original Paddy MacNab.


tudortalk
Ballboy/girl

May 25, 2012, 7:51 AM

Posts: 6
Location:
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Post #437 of 457 (4060 views)
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Re: [highfive] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yeah, Dean Brennan was confirmed as Hemel Town manager yesterday. The appointment was given a mixed response on our forum and interestingly, the Club said he would do a good job at whatever level we end up playing in so maybe we wont be getting the reprieve after all. Pirate Good luck to him and his assistant for next season - he's gonna need it ! Cool


chienmort
Reserve Team Regular


May 25, 2012, 2:08 PM

Posts: 668
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

Post #438 of 457 (3774 views)
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Re: [RRYFS] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The problem for the Wessex is that Wimborne have done just enough to avoid relegation for the last two seasons and the other "Wessex" teams in the SL have been doing rather well. The squad quietly being assembled at Wimborne could well challenge for a play off place next season

Ironically I believe that the struggler in SL Div 1 S&W may be Winchester and that you could see them again in Season 2013-2014 especially with the new "must relegate" rules are applied for the last placed club in each league.

The good thing is that a new club should be promoted this year. It is to be hoped that someone challenges Bemerton Heath Harlequins as they would not be a positive footballing addition to the SL.

If Winchester or Wimborne are not relegetad next season I can see no club coming back to the Wessex again.



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien


HarryC
First Team Sub

May 25, 2012, 2:20 PM

Posts: 999
Location: Fleet
Team(s): Fleet, Aldershot, Chelsea

Post #439 of 457 (3742 views)
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Re: [chienmort] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or


In Reply To

If Winchester or Wimborne are not relegetad next season I can see no club coming back to the Wessex again.



Thanks for your faith that Fleet will not be down the bottom again


petermiller36
Reserve Team Regular

May 25, 2012, 4:41 PM

Posts: 585
Location:
Team(s): AFC Wimbledon & St Neots Town & Ware FC

Post #440 of 457 (3519 views)
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Re: [HarryC] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

CONFIRMED: Cammell Laird; Harrogate RA; Fleet Town and Ware have all recieved reprieves!

DELIGHTED FOR WARE! Even more delighted that my spreadsheet was right all along and I'm not now going to have non-league fans hunting me down with pitch forks.



Step 4 and 5 Spreadsheet: http://bit.ly/2013step4and5

T: @petermiller36


The Amber Army
Youth Team Sub


May 25, 2012, 5:18 PM

Posts: 107
Location: New Mills, The High Peak, Derbyshire
Team(s): New Mills A.F.C. - The Mighty Millers!

Post #441 of 457 (3377 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

http://evostikleague.pitchero.com/...ons-for-201213-9259/

Smile



Location of Church Lane

http://millers.freeforums.net/...ral&thread=44&page=1

For matchday updates on twitter try @newmillsafc or @DuncanHibbert


(This post was edited by The Amber Army on May 25, 2012, 5:19 PM)


petermiller36
Reserve Team Regular

May 25, 2012, 5:19 PM

Posts: 585
Location:
Team(s): AFC Wimbledon & St Neots Town & Ware FC

Post #442 of 457 (3363 views)
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Re: [The Amber Army] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

That's been posted elsewhere, by me. And hyperlinked. Wink



Step 4 and 5 Spreadsheet: http://bit.ly/2013step4and5

T: @petermiller36


Romboro
Youth Team Star

May 25, 2012, 6:04 PM

Posts: 283
Location: Essex not London!
Team(s): Romford FC

Post #443 of 457 (3256 views)
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Re: [petermiller36] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Where is the confirmed Ryman stuff please anyone?


blackdouglas
First Team Star


May 25, 2012, 6:13 PM

Posts: 2354
Location: Northwood, Middlesex
Team(s): See signature for clubs & 2013/14 projection links

Post #444 of 457 (3226 views)
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Re: [Romboro] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


Quote
Where is the confirmed Ryman stuff please anyone?


The whole document can be found on this pdf http://bit.ly/JZ2gme



Northwood, Threave Rovers, Arsenal, Watford, Rochdale, Rangers (the real ones, NOT qpr), queen of the south and a few others.

Pyramid Allocations for the 2013/14 season as published by the FA on May 17th http://bit.ly/18QoFvt
How I would've allocated the clubs for 2013/14 http://bit.ly/OS8GoJ


Romboro
Youth Team Star

May 25, 2012, 6:49 PM

Posts: 283
Location: Essex not London!
Team(s): Romford FC

Post #445 of 457 (3178 views)
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Re: [blackdouglas] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

Quote
Where is the confirmed Ryman stuff please anyone?

The whole document can be found on this pdf http://bit.ly/JZ2gme



Many thanks!


Swindon Addick
Youth Team Star

May 25, 2012, 10:24 PM

Posts: 354
Location: Swindon
Team(s): Cambridge City, Charlton Athletic

Post #446 of 457 (2985 views)
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Re: [RRYFS] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
If a club drops out of (or is stupidly expelled from) a league, then that league and its feeders are the only ones who should be affected.

But that's exactly what happens now. Because of pooling, which applies at least from step 5 up, the only real "feeder leagues" nowadays are the lower divisions of individual leagues. And if a Northern Premier club is kicked out, the resulting reprieve goes to the best-placed club in its two lower divisions, not to the best-placed club anywhere at step 4. A step 5 reprieve caused by the same expulsion does go anywhere nationwide, but that's because there are no official feeder leagues any more. The Western League may only have one step 4 league it can sensibly promote to, but the Eastern Counties has three!


In Reply To
(From Mister TwoU's reply) Choose pooling or choose not-pooling, not some hybrid. And apply the same rules all the way down the pile.

And this, I think, is the key point. Either go for the Welsh system with no pooling, reprieves kept to leagues and their feeders and the chance of teams getting relegated having finished outside the "usual" relegation places, or else stick with pooling and live with the consequences.



Round 1: Cambridge City 0-0 MK Dons
Round 4: QPR 2-4 MK Dons


welshmiller
Youth Team Sub


May 25, 2012, 11:15 PM

Posts: 150
Location:
Team(s): New Mills,Stockport County

Post #447 of 457 (2920 views)
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Re: [The Amber Army] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To


Smile Smile

Right,where is Adam Mather?Wink


thegardener
Junior Team Regular

May 26, 2012, 8:24 AM

Posts: 46
Location: wickham
Team(s): portsmouth, sholing fc, wessex league, wickham dynamos

Post #448 of 457 (2774 views)
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Re: [chienmort] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

With the budget Winchester are probably going to have and the fact that Wessex Champions have got quite a good record in this division, I would be very surprised if they struggled.


chienmort
Reserve Team Regular


May 27, 2012, 6:53 PM

Posts: 668
Location: Poole
Team(s): Poole Town FC, Queens Park RANGERS.

Post #449 of 457 (2382 views)
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Re: [thegardener] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I am trying hard to know how to answer this without risking flames or a libel suite.

In recent years a number of clubs have been promoted form the Wessex. Sholing, AFC Totton, Gosport Boro (still hurts) Poole Town and Wimborne spring to mind. All have done reasonably well, perhaps with the exception of Wimborne. To do well in this division you need either a well run club, a reasonable budget or both.

Wimborne's poor finishes really came from the previous turmoil in the boardroom and their restricted budget was caused by a large bill paid to the taxman. They survived on a small squad by the skin of their teeth in the first season but were already laying the foundation for a well run club. They continued to struggle in the second season but with a strong supporter base and the right management team they are now on the up. A great finish to the season and some recent squad additions means that the future looks bright for Wimborne.

Sholing, Gosport, AFC Totton were and continue to be well run clubs and whilst Gosport may find the Premier Division hard next year I have no doubt that the club is set up to survive and move on. Looking at the league as a whole, there are no easy matches. In the Wessex you have many games where 80% is more that enough. Anything less than your best is punished in the SL.

I have clearly not seen Winchester this last season but in the previous seasons in the Wessex they were (or seemed to think they were ) a big club that deserved to be placed higher. Their performances were erratic, beating some teams out of sight but crumbling in the face of any pressure.

They had a big split between board and supporters with many supporters supposedly leaving and going to support other local non league clubs.

The step up from the Wessex to the Southern League is massive. Wimborne Town fans told us (Poole Town) when we were promoted and they were right. Don't let our 2nd place finish fool you. We had a really tough season and needed both a good brand of football and a mental toughness that was not needed in the Wessex.

With so many old Wessex teams in the SL Div 1 South and West now, the local pool of talent is fairly well committed and with Eastleigh and Southampton both doing well, there are few uncommitted fans in the area.

So a Wessex Squad will struggle in the SL and to buy a Southern League squad needs more than 120 average gate can support. It needs a club where the team, management, board and supporters work together, might be successful but from where I am looking that is not Winchester.

So their average attendances (approx. half Wimborne's) will not support a "big spend" and past evidence suggests that that debt or loans from the directors would not be a good way to proceed.



Poole Town FC - les couilles du chien

(This post was edited by chienmort on May 27, 2012, 6:57 PM)


Richard Rundle
Chelsea Transfer Target

May 28, 2012, 10:57 AM

Posts: 3961
Location:
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Post #450 of 457 (2131 views)
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Re: [chienmort] Step 4 2012-13 [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I am trying hard to know how to answer this without risking flames or a libel suite.

In recent years a number of clubs have been promoted form the Wessex. Sholing, AFC Totton, Gosport Boro (still hurts) Poole Town and Wimborne spring to mind. All have done reasonably well, perhaps with the exception of Wimborne. To do well in this division you need either a well run club, a reasonable budget or both.


You seem to have conveniently over-looked Winchester City and Andover

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