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League Cups - why bother?

 

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eesti7
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Jan 13, 2009, 9:59 PM

Posts: 1001
Location: Kent
Team(s): Gillingham, Tonbridge

Post #1 of 38 (3520 views)
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League Cups - why bother? Can't Post or Reply Privately

Are League Cup competitions worth the bother?

If the Southern, Isthmian and Northern Premier Leagues did away with their league cups next season would they be missed? Attendances are pitiful so most clubs don't even cover expenses, teams are below strength and there's hardly any glory attached to winning them.

The Conference managed ok without a league cup for a few years and it only came back because Setanta waved some money.

Maybe it's a bit different from step 5 down. I know the Sussex League still takes them seriously. But in the Kent League it's just a way of adding some fixtures to make up for the lack of teams in the league.

I'm playing devils advocate a little bit here but would be interested to hear other people's views. Personally I'd scrap them!


(This post was edited by eesti7 on Jan 13, 2009, 10:53 PM)


3-1-5-1
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Jan 13, 2009, 10:17 PM

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Re: [eesti7] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm always amazed at the amount of cup competitions there are; League Cups, County Cups, FA Vase/Trophy, Midweek Floodlit Hospital things etc etc...

How can the players find the time to play all these matches, is what I want to know. Especially when you get a spate of postponements and the games have to be played midweek later in the season.

Maybe that's why teams are below strength and the crowds don't bother.

If you had to scrap one of them, and I think they should, then I think the League Cups would definitely be the prime contenders!



Eu sou Gaucho!


VP
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Jan 13, 2009, 10:45 PM

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Post #3 of 38 (3472 views)
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Re: [eesti7] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

One of the the benefits of the Combined Counties League cup is that the home team keep all the money. I don't know if that happens in other leagues. We've had four home draws on the trot this season so are doing alright out of it but, that aside, of course you've got to have your league cups. They always have been and always will be.
If they didn't happen then teams would only arrange more mid season friendlies.


(This post was edited by VP on Jan 13, 2009, 10:46 PM)


sandhurstbee
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Jan 13, 2009, 11:24 PM

Posts: 6446
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Post #4 of 38 (3427 views)
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Re: [VP] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The League Cup competitions will always provide the smaller sides a chance of a little bit of glory. As VP says they have had 4 Home games, so a little bit of luck can provide a team with a chance of some silver wear when maybe they are not strong enough or consistant enough to mount a serious challenge for the League. Also at the end of the day as supporters we all love to see our team in a cup final don`t we, even if it is for a Micky Mouse Trophy. Tongue



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UKPunk
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Jan 13, 2009, 11:29 PM

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Post #5 of 38 (3422 views)
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Re: [sandhurstbee] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

We need the Micky Mouse trophies. It's the only ones we've a hope of winning. Unsure



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sandhurstbee
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Jan 13, 2009, 11:32 PM

Posts: 6446
Location: Little Sandhurst, Berkshire
Team(s): Brentford, Sandhurst Town and Most local Non League sides.

Post #6 of 38 (3419 views)
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Re: [UKPunk] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
We need the Micky Mouse trophies. It's the only ones we've a hope of winning. Unsure


EXACTLY Wink



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oftenscore6
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Jan 14, 2009, 12:25 AM

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Post #7 of 38 (3395 views)
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Re: [VP] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In the NPL cups, the revenue is shared, but you can't deduct some of the match costs (including ground hire), which with very little prize money at stake and no opportunity to switch it to a neutral or away ground (except Kendal v Woodley?), makes it potentially very expensive for us to have a home game. By all accounts, Woodley Sports played very well against what might be described as 'an unfamiliar FCUM line up' and fully deserved their 3-0 home win against us in our only League Cup appearance this season.



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prioryman
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Jan 14, 2009, 12:32 AM

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Post #8 of 38 (3389 views)
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Re: [eesti7] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

At Guisborough Town we play in 5 Cup competitions and have just won our second round tiie in the League Cup tonight - a cold mid week match at Jarrow and getting in at midnight (I know it could be worse as we are away to Morpeth in next round but it could have been over in Cumbria).

The cups we play in are:

FA Cup (Saturdays excluding replays)

FA Vase (Sats ex Replays)

North Riding Senior County Cup (mid week)

League Cup (Mid week)

Ernest Armstrong solely for Second Divison clubs (mid week).


blackdouglas
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Jan 14, 2009, 12:57 AM

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Post #9 of 38 (3378 views)
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Re: [eesti7] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Northwood enter 5 cup competions.
  1. FA Cup
  2. FA Trophy
  3. Middlesex Senior Cup
  4. Middlesex Charity Cup &
  5. Ryman League, League Cup
Only in the latter 3 have we any reasonable chance of progressing far in, and of those, only the MCC and Ryman League Cup have we any chance of winning. So I think the answer to the question is yes, they are worth the bother.



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KnowYourMarket
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Jan 14, 2009, 1:17 AM

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Post #10 of 38 (3374 views)
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Re: [VP] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
One of the the benefits of the Combined Counties League cup is that the home team keep all the money. I don't know if that happens in other leagues. We've had four home draws on the trot this season so are doing alright out of it but, that aside, of course you've got to have your league cups. They always have been and always will be.
If they didn't happen then teams would only arrange more mid season friendlies.


Precisely



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SuperKev!
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Jan 14, 2009, 10:34 AM

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Post #11 of 38 (3307 views)
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Re: [modelhobbies] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Spartan South Midlands League are holding a mid-season all clubs meeting this week (Thursday) and one of the agenda items is the scrapping of the Premier Division Cup. I don't know how many other leagues still have divisional cups as well as their league cup. SSML clubs currently compete in the Challenge Trophy (their League Cup), their divisional cup, FA Cup, FA Vase, at least one county cup depending which county/counties they are affiliated to (I know of clubs that have entered four county cups in a season), and several clubs compete in one, two or even three local/charity competitions.


TB&G
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Jan 14, 2009, 10:46 AM

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Post #12 of 38 (3294 views)
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Re: [SuperKev!] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

In the ESL we have only 16 teams this season so extra games to the 30 league ones help to fill the season. We have a league cup with four group stages giving each club an extra 3 home and three away games followed by two leg quarter finals for the top two in each group then two leg semis and a one off final. We also have a knockout charity trophy for all clubs.

The only disadvantage to the league cup in my view is that the clubs knocked out at group stages lose out on any more games and I feel that we could do with an additional repechage cup for these with two leg quarters and semis etc to give them some extra games too.


Bigg One
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Jan 14, 2009, 10:54 AM

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Post #13 of 38 (3289 views)
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Re: [SuperKev!] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Spartan South Midlands League are holding a mid-season all clubs meeting this week (Thursday) and one of the agenda items is the scrapping of the Premier Division Cup. I don't know how many other leagues still have divisional cups as well as their league cup. SSML clubs currently compete in the Challenge Trophy (their League Cup), their divisional cup, FA Cup, FA Vase, at least one county cup depending which county/counties they are affiliated to (I know of clubs that have entered four county cups in a season), and several clubs compete in one, two or even three local/charity competitions.



Biggleswade Town are entered in 10 cup competitions this season and with the amount of games already postponed i can see some falling by the wayside...or playing 4 games a week to get rid of the backlog


rainworthgord
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Jan 14, 2009, 11:25 AM

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Post #14 of 38 (3269 views)
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Re: [Bigg One] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Well, let's see...

We have NCEL Division One, FA Cup, FA Vase, Notts Senior Cup, NCEL League Cup, President's Cup and Wilkinson Sword Trophy (effectively Division One Cup). I feel a bit sorry for our reserves who only have the Notts Intermediate Cup and the Reserve League Cup to go for apart from the league itself.

Seriously, there are too many nondescript cups as I've said on another thread. I recall someone (sorry, can't remember who it was to give him the credit he deserves) once mentioned a competition for the Chairman's Wife's Goldfish Bowl ... about sums it up.


MattRamLives
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Jan 14, 2009, 11:55 AM

Posts: 964
Location: Tibshelf Services - nearly
Team(s): Every Derbyshire team

Post #15 of 38 (3258 views)
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Re: [rainworthgord] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

not non league but I loved watching the Anglo Italian Cup games (last reincarnation) got me a trip to Wembley with the Rams (v Cremonese) lost of course - the had a really great forward
I wont remind Gordon of a CML Floodlit Cup match Rainworth played at Holbrook a few years back
ps if you are in the N Mids today Alfreton are hosting Mansfield Res v Derby Res at 2pm today - late notice I know - entrance for adults is 3 - another important cup competition - we don't even have a reserve side!!
Its still foggy and frosty though so must be in doubt


(This post was edited by MattRamLives on Jan 14, 2009, 12:01 PM)


VP
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Jan 14, 2009, 4:01 PM

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Post #16 of 38 (3184 views)
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Re: [MattRamLives] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

The Combined Counties League Cup obviously matters to Wembley FC.
They're still to re-play their second round game against Badshot Lea. Badshot won the original game but the ref gave a goal kick for encroachment on a penalty rather than ordering a re-take so Wembley appealed for the match to be declared void to the Combined Counties League. The CCL dismissed the appeal so Wembley went to the FA who ordered the game to be re-played.

I have no idea if there's any prize money in this cup. If there is it won't be much and, as Wembley are the away team in this match and are also away in the third and fourth rounds if they get through, they won't be getting any revenue from the competition unless they get through to the semi's and are drawn at home.

I admire their attitude.


(This post was edited by VP on Jan 14, 2009, 4:03 PM)


ciderjon
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Jan 14, 2009, 4:08 PM

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Post #17 of 38 (3174 views)
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Re: [MattRamLives] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
not non league but I loved watching the Anglo Italian Cup games (last reincarnation) got me a trip to Wembley with the Rams (v Cremonese) lost of course - the had a really great forward


Was also at that one. Sheep Shag Army.



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dave
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Jan 14, 2009, 4:19 PM

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Post #18 of 38 (3162 views)
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Re: [ciderjon] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

As well as competing in the league AFC Wimbledon enter 5 cup competitions. The FA Cup and FA Trophy are the main ones. The league cup is the Setanta Shield which for some reason is not on Setanta despite the cup being named after the TV station. I think the final will be though. The senior cups are the London and the Surrey Senior Cup, as AFC Wimbledon are one of the clubs that enter both the London FA and Surrey FA Cup competitions. I think the senior one is the London FA, which means player suspensions don't count in the Surrey Senior Cup or something like that.

As you'd expect the club do take the FA Cup and FA Trophy seriously, but don't really bother with the other cups (in terms of playing the first team.) In the Setanta Shield the first squad (I won't pretend it was the first team) lost to Chelmsford, and the London and Surrey Senior Cups have been used for the reserves and a mixture of youth team players breaking through. They did win against Tooting & Mitcham in the Surrey Senior Cup, and play Dulwich Hamlet next so its a good run out for the less experienced players.


MattRamLives
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Jan 14, 2009, 4:35 PM

Posts: 964
Location: Tibshelf Services - nearly
Team(s): Every Derbyshire team

Post #19 of 38 (3149 views)
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Re: [ciderjon] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
not non league but I loved watching the Anglo Italian Cup games (last reincarnation) got me a trip to Wembley with the Rams (v Cremonese) lost of course - the had a really great forward


Was also at that one. Sheep Shag Army.


In some ways it was a funny day out. We caught a bus and it had to stop due to crowd trouble (2-300 Cremona fans there) was nt clear if it was footy fans or just a bit of over exuberance by their fans.
Getting in to London town it was the 'no football fans' refrain until they realised that compared to the hooray Henry's from the Henley Regatta we were pussy cats, we got in no problem. Great day out with around 35k Rams fans.
Better than losing to the Foxes and stopping of at Leicester Forest services!!!
I think a league cup, county cup and the FA Comps are enough but if leagues are small and the clubs vote for them then supplementaries are ok - they know the cost etc.
Though depending on level just a ref prehaps? or regionalised. I noticed the CML floodit has gone regionilised - though still a big region!


paignton-nick
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Jan 14, 2009, 4:43 PM

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Post #20 of 38 (3141 views)
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Re: [MattRamLives] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
not non league but I loved watching the Anglo Italian Cup games (last reincarnation) got me a trip to Wembley

My first trip to Wembley was for Notts. County v Brescia in the aforementioned cup. We sat with the Brescia fans who ended up fighting amongst themselves...



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hawkwind
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Jan 14, 2009, 5:14 PM

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Post #21 of 38 (3122 views)
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Re: [SuperKev!] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The Spartan South Midlands League are holding a mid-season all clubs meeting this week (Thursday) and one of the agenda items is the scrapping of the Premier Division Cup. I don't know how many other leagues still have divisional cups as well as their league cup. SSML clubs currently compete in the Challenge Trophy (their League Cup), their divisional cup, FA Cup, FA Vase, at least one county cup depending which county/counties they are affiliated to (I know of clubs that have entered four county cups in a season), and several clubs compete in one, two or even three local/charity competitions.


This covers leagues that are wholly or partly at anywhere between Level 1 and Step 5 inclusive.

No League Cup: Premier League and Football League who have a combination event.

All other leagues have a league cup.

Additionally:
Football League: Cup for their 2nd and 3rd tier.
Northern Premier League: Cup for 2nd tier.
Combined Counties: Cup for 2nd tier.
Eastern Counties: Cup for 2nd tier.
Essex Senior: Two - League Cup and Gordon Brasted Trophy.
Hellenic: Floodlit (self-explanatory) and Supplementary (plate for teams eliminated before League Cup last 16).
North West Counties: Cup for 2nd tier.
Northern: Cup for 2nd tier.
Northern Counties East: Cup for 2nd tier, and Cup for previous season top 8 of each tier still in league, with extra qualifiers from top flight to replace clubs leaving upwards.
Spartan South Midlands: Cup for each tier.
Sussex: League Cup restricted to top two tiers. Additionally divisional cups for 2nd tier and 3rd tier. Also Sussex RUR Charity Cup is contested by Sussex League top two flights only.


eesti7
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Jan 14, 2009, 5:38 PM

Posts: 1001
Location: Kent
Team(s): Gillingham, Tonbridge

Post #22 of 38 (3102 views)
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Re: [hawkwind] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Interesting stuff. I wonder if anybody is brave enough to attempt a list of all the regional / County / made-up cups that clubs at steps 1-5 play in. That would take some effort!!!

In Kent there is the Kent Senior Cup for steps 1-4 (Gills, Charlton and Millwall are also welcome to join in they want to) and the Kent Senior Trophy for step 5 (with a couple from step 6 + West Whickham thrown in). Personally I'd like to see the two combined to create a single county competition like everybody else has!


3-1-5-1
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Jan 14, 2009, 7:04 PM

Posts: 541
Location: Hanoi
Team(s): Sheff Wed, Gremio, Cwmbran and thirty others

Post #23 of 38 (3076 views)
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Re: [eesti7] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Another question about all these Cup games...

I'm assuming they have three match officials...

How do they fit in all these games around their daily jobs?!



Eu sou Gaucho!


scottywalds
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Jan 14, 2009, 7:35 PM

Posts: 2210
Location: Boston
Team(s): Boston United

Post #24 of 38 (3057 views)
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Re: [3-1-5-1] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

League Cups are our forte this season - cups in general, actually.

We beat Spalding away 6-1 in the 3rd Round, then won at Eastwood 4-0 last night. We're giving the final year youth teamers the chance to impress, and they certainly did so last night. They played better than the first team!

We ended the game with 10 teenagers on the pitch


Dan BHTFC
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Jan 15, 2009, 10:28 AM

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Re: [scottywalds] League Cups - why bother? [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

When we played in the County League we had the John O'Hara (League Cup), RUR Cup, F.A Vase and F.A Cup. Our Reserves play in the Mid Sussex Senior Charity Cup.

This year we are doing ok in the League Cup, we play the winners of Dulwich vs. Cray but I see the competition as a way of getting silverware or playing a Ryman Premier club.



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