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Ref assaulted.

 

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Dovecote
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Nov 28, 2008, 10:37 AM

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Post #51 of 91 (4033 views)
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Re: [Roman] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Ditto - nobody has argued against a fair trial. My argument is with Richard Rundle, who said that we should wait for Joe Preston to be "proven guilty" before we were allowed to say on here that he should be banned, etc. The proof of guilt is the fact that he admitted it.

By the way, using serial killers as an analogy is somewhat bizarre, in my humble opinion. Did the examples used by DaveU all admit their guilt, I can't recall.


Seagull
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Nov 28, 2008, 11:00 AM

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Post #52 of 91 (4014 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Ditto - nobody has argued against a fair trial. My argument is with Richard Rundle, who said that we should wait for Joe Preston to be "proven guilty" before we were allowed to say on here that he should be banned, etc. The proof of guilt is the fact that he admitted it.

By the way, using serial killers as an analogy is somewhat bizarre, in my humble opinion. Did the examples used by DaveU all admit their guilt, I can't recall.



Could I just play peacemaker for one second before this gets out of hand?

I think what Richard meant was that he was "proven guilty" through the due processes of the law of the land, ie he's had a trial.

If he he admits his guilt in court, he'll be sentenced and the FA will no doubt doubt deal with the case as they see fit as well.


DaveU
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Nov 28, 2008, 12:05 PM

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Post #53 of 91 (3985 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Ditto - nobody has argued against a fair trial. My argument is with Richard Rundle, who said that we should wait for Joe Preston to be "proven guilty" before we were allowed to say on here that he should be banned, etc. The proof of guilt is the fact that he admitted it.

By the way, using serial killers as an analogy is somewhat bizarre, in my humble opinion. Did the examples used by DaveU all admit their guilt, I can't recall.


I thought the reaction to Richard's post was over the top. It seems it's OK to feel righteous anger and make judgements about something we only know about second hand, but for someone to express reservations about that sparks a ridiculous amount of outrage. The point is, that all we know about the incident is what we've read on the internet, and while everyone is entitled to feel outraged about the incident, surely we also have the right to reserve judgement without sparking off the kind of heated disagreement that has been expressed on this forum.

As for my analogy, I was just using extreme examples to demonstrate that however severe the accusations the accused is always entitled to a fair trial. Can't really see what is bizarre about that.



There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Geoff
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Nov 28, 2008, 8:01 PM

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Post #54 of 91 (3895 views)
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Re: [DaveU] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I agree that " a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt" so give the guy a fair trial then when he has been found guilty the courts should send him down for several years and the F.A. should ban him from all football grounds in the UK for life, whatever the claimed provocation or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is that there is a real probability that, even if he is guilty, he may get off with a police caution (so no court appearance) and be back playing again in a couple of years.


UKPunk
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Nov 28, 2008, 9:18 PM

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Post #55 of 91 (3879 views)
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Re: [Geoff] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I agree that " a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt" so give the guy a fair trial then when he has been found guilty the courts should send him down for several years and the F.A. should ban him from all football grounds in the UK for life, whatever the claimed provocation or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is that there is a real probability that, even if he is guilty, he may get off with a police caution (so no court appearance) and be back playing again in a couple of years.

And this is the reason why these incidents continue to occur. I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I'm all in favour of squeezing in as many violent offenders as needs be in order to get them off our streets. As far as I'm concerned all this 'human rights for prisoners' crap is half the reason why so many of them re-offend. If they knew they'd be breaking their backs doing real work for 5 days a week and then going back to a cell with no TV, radio, or any other 'luxuries' they'd be more inclined to follow the rules like the rest of us.

And before anyone comes back with the 'deprived background' excuse let me say this. I sympathise with anyone who has had a sh*tty upbringing. But that isn't an excuse to go about making other peoples lives hell. It's about time the authorities stopped spending their time and our money worrying about the 'rights' of these people and use those resources to support the victims of violent crime.

I think you'll turn out to be right Geoff. He'll get a slap on the wrist, return to the game, and the referee will walk away. And I couldn't blame him if he did.



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eldumpo
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Nov 28, 2008, 11:37 PM

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Post #56 of 91 (3842 views)
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Re: [Geoff] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Whilst I don't condone the act it seems a bit harsh to ban him from football for life (if it's his first such offence). If you were convicted of assaulting someone in a pub you wouldn't be banned from all pubs for life. It may not apply in this case, but the offender could've been an 18 year old who had a momentary lapse and would then be banned for the rest of his career. I guess if anyone did the same again then a life ban would be reasonable. Also, have such bans (whether for life or a set period) been administered before - does it only relate to Saturday football down to a certain level?

In Reply To
I agree that " a person is innocent until proven guilty, even if they have admitted guilt" so give the guy a fair trial then when he has been found guilty the courts should send him down for several years and the F.A. should ban him from all football grounds in the UK for life, whatever the claimed provocation or mitigating circumstances.
The problem is that there is a real probability that, even if he is guilty, he may get off with a police caution (so no court appearance) and be back playing again in a couple of years.



Bigg One
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Nov 29, 2008, 9:15 AM

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Post #57 of 91 (3809 views)
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Re: [eldumpo] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Whilst I don't condone the act it seems a bit harsh to ban him from football for life (if it's his first such offence).






no wonder the country is going to pot,with views like that


bspittles
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Nov 29, 2008, 9:50 AM

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Post #58 of 91 (3800 views)
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Re: [Bigg One] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I hesitantly agree with eldumpo. The actions we take (whether in the heat of the moment or net) are very different at 18 than at, for example, 25.

By that time, people have generally learned to be more responsible, more aware of the consequences of their actions and have different priorities in their lives. At 18, football might mean everything to this player, at 25 he may have a family and a career.

How many people on this board can honestly say that, aged 18, they behaved completely responsibly (and I'm not talking about staying within the law, I mean general decision making).

The only problem with a timed ban is I believe they can be challenged part way through, whereas a "sine die" ban cannot be appealed. Not sure where I've picked up on that. If the decision was mine, I'd be asking the ref (the victim) for his opinion.


(This post was edited by bspittles on Nov 29, 2008, 9:51 AM)


rhodes
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Nov 29, 2008, 9:58 AM

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Post #59 of 91 (3796 views)
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Re: [Jamesie] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or


Quote
I myself thought the attack was shocking along with members of the management who have already said, 'He will never play for this club again'. I dont think this really matters as he will be banned from football for life for such an attack.


Yes but do the Club's Management really mean it, there was a shocking incident earlier in the season at Wellingborough Town involving a Kentish Town player who incredibly head butted his own Coach to the ground immediately following an FA Cup tie in full view of spectators, players and officials. The Management stated that the player, who has been with Kentish Town since the tender age of 13 or 14, will never play for the Club again however I know they are just letting the dust settle and he will be welcomed back with open arms as soon as the Coach departs for pastures new.


Bigg One
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Nov 29, 2008, 10:40 AM

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Post #60 of 91 (3782 views)
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Re: [bspittles] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I hesitantly agree with eldumpo. The actions we take (whether in the heat of the moment or net) are very different at 18 than at, for example, 25.




you have found the secret formula..........no one plays football till they are 25

Sorted Wink


bspittles
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Nov 29, 2008, 10:42 AM

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Post #61 of 91 (3780 views)
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Re: [Bigg One] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To
I hesitantly agree with eldumpo. The actions we take (whether in the heat of the moment or net) are very different at 18 than at, for example, 25.




you have found the secret formula..........no one plays football till they are 25

Sorted Wink


Personally, I hoping they'll extend that to 45. I might still make it as a professional!


noprogs
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Nov 29, 2008, 10:53 AM

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Post #62 of 91 (3772 views)
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Re: [Richard Rundle] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Yes we do have legal systems in this country for a reason - to create work for itself


Geoff
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Nov 29, 2008, 11:10 PM

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Post #63 of 91 (3693 views)
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Re: [bspittles] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I'm sorry bstittals but if you either do not know that thumping a ref is wrong or cannot control your temper well enough not to do so by the time you are 18 then you are unlikely to be able to do at 25, 35 of 45.
At 18 you can vote, marry, have children and generally have complete freedom of choice and, in return for that freedom you must accept full responsibility for the things you do, that is the deal.
I would agree that if the player was a junior or youth player there would be an argument for a fixed ban but once you move up to adult football you should be treated as a adult and behave like one. If you do not you must take the consequences and if that means you can no longer take part in football so be it. How important football is to you is not relevant. I suggest that anyone who smacks a ref does not see football as that important in their life anyway, otherwise they would have more respect for the game


UKPunk
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Nov 29, 2008, 11:41 PM

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Post #64 of 91 (3685 views)
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Re: [Geoff] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Not only do I agree with all of the above from Geoff, I'd also like to point out that one punch can, in some circumstances, kill. Would those posters who seem to be so forgiving change their opinion of life bans if such an outcome should occur in future?

I would also like to point out that at 18 I was no more inclined to whack a ref' or anyone else than I am now at 45. For a start my Dad would have killed me. Besides which I'd been brought up to know that throwing punches at people, whether ref's or otherwise, unless physically threatened myself, is wrong.



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Dovecote
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Nov 30, 2008, 12:07 AM

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Post #65 of 91 (3677 views)
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Re: [UKPunk] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
Not only do I agree with all of the above from Geoff, I'd also like to point out that one punch can, in some circumstances, kill. Would those posters who seem to be so forgiving change their opinion of life bans if such an outcome should occur in future?

I would also like to point out that at 18 I was no more inclined to whack a ref' or anyone else than I am now at 45. For a start my Dad would have killed me. Besides which I'd been brought up to know that throwing punches at people, whether ref's or otherwise, unless physically threatened myself, is wrong.



Ah, but would your Dad have been able to "prove" that you'd whacked the ref?


UKPunk
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Nov 30, 2008, 12:17 AM

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Post #66 of 91 (3676 views)
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Re: [Dovecote] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To

In Reply To

Ah, but would your Dad have been able to "prove" that you'd whacked the ref?

He wouldn't have to because I'd never do it. Nevertheless, I did laugh at your humorous retort. Tongue



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bspittles
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Nov 30, 2008, 2:01 AM

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Post #67 of 91 (3666 views)
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Re: [Geoff] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
I'm sorry bstittals but if you either do not know that thumping a ref is wrong or cannot control your temper well enough not to do so by the time you are 18 then you are unlikely to be able to do at 25, 35 of 45.


I think there's a difference between "knowing it is wrong" and doing it anyway in the "heat of the moment".

In my mind, there are three reasons for the FA to ban some-one (or the courts to hand down a sentence):

a) punishment - so that the guilty party understands the magnitude of what they've done.
b) public safety - so that the guilty party doesn't do it again.
c) deterrent - to make others think twice before doing something similar,

All of the above play some part in the process.

So will a 7 year ban (for example) be a long enough punishment so that the magnitude of the crime is understood? I would have thought so. The player probably understands it already.

Will a 7 year ban stop the player re-offending? Again, I would have thought so, for the reasons given in my earlier post. (You're right, people can get married at 18 - my younger brother did, then got divorced within a year and now admits to an error of judgement - that's the poor decision making I mentioned earlier. 18 year olds can also drive, but are far more likely to get caught speeding or be involved in an accident in which speed plays a part than a 25 year old. See the pattern?)

Finally, will it be a deterrent? I think the attack was so appalling that others don't really need to be deterred, however 7 years to an 18 year old is a very long time indeed - most wouldn't know what they'd be doing in three years time.

I'd still like to get the ref involved though. I believe in the States, criminals can't be granted parole without the agreement of their victim, maybe that would be worth considering?

Finally, please grant to me the courtesy of getting my name right - I know it's tricky, but use cut and paste...


jimmyjazz
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Nov 30, 2008, 8:25 AM

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Post #68 of 91 (3650 views)
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Re: [bspittles] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

I don't believe a 'heat of the moment' action should have any bearing, if only so it sends out the right message to other players.

Not in this particular instance , but going forward I personally feel that the FA should make it clear that both the club and the manager should also be held responsible in such circumstances for 'not controlling their players'.

Had a spectator punched the referee the club would expect to be punished so why should it be any different with one of their 'employees'?


Geoff
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Nov 30, 2008, 10:40 AM

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Post #69 of 91 (3621 views)
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Re: [bspittles] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

My apologises for my discourtesy bspittles, it was not intended.
I remain unconvinced by your arguments however, I donít know how many 18 year olds you know but I work with literally hundreds people of this age in my part time job and I can assure you that they would find your opinion that they should be treated more like a naughty child rather than responsible adults because they are too young to know better, very insulting indeed.
Personally I would rather err on the side of caution than take the chance that your "thoughts" on the matter could be wrong and a shorter ban could be seen as not taking this attack as seriously as we should,
Refereeís are leaving the game in droves. The game can do without players who physically attack referees, it cannot do without the men in black. It is essential that the message is clear and unambiguous, if you physically attack a referee you are not needed in football and the game is better off without you.


Mad Bill
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Nov 30, 2008, 3:19 PM

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Post #70 of 91 (3581 views)
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Re: [Geoff] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

How's this for a thought? Anyone convicted of striking a referee should be banned sine die, regardless of age.
The future of the game at our level, relying as it does on a supply of referees, is far more important than sadly having to deprive a few people who, for whatever reason, can't control their tempers, of the pleasure of playing football. They can always find a rugby club to welcome them.
The right to play a particular sport is, when all's said and done, not one of the major human rights, and everyone who isn't punished as severely as possible becomes a precedent for the lenient treatment of the next thug.


UKPunk
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Nov 30, 2008, 8:28 PM

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Post #71 of 91 (3526 views)
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Re: [Mad Bill] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately


In Reply To
The right to play a particular sport is, when all's said and done, not one of the major human rights, and everyone who isn't punished as severely as possible becomes a precedent for the lenient treatment of the next thug.

I totally agree with that Bill.



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burgesshillbee
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Dec 1, 2008, 8:34 PM

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Post #72 of 91 (3444 views)
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Re: [UKPunk] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
As this game was played below Step 4 the FA wont be responsible for dealing with the player his local County FA will be. They will have to follow FA Guidelines and should have suspended him straight away until his case is dealt with. In normal cases this should be within 28 days i believe. The player can ask for his case to be heard at a later date than this if it also becomes a police case and can ask to wait until the police case has been dealt with however he will remain suspended from playing. His ban should be a minimum sine die 5 years no review ,it might be 7 years. Also when that time has elapsed he cannot start playing straight away he would have to requset his County FA to lift the ban.


Referee
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Dec 3, 2008, 10:39 AM

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Post #73 of 91 (3346 views)
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Re: [Mad Bill] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

Sine die bans wouldn't be a bad start but I can sympathise with the view that might be too severe in some cases (especially on a sliding scale of "assault").

Us referees need to feel somebody is on our side though !

Recent case - county FA has banned a player reported as having assaulted a referee for 35 days !!! There are some disgruntled refs in our area particularly the one who was assaulted.


Veteran
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Dec 3, 2008, 1:02 PM

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Post #74 of 91 (3315 views)
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Re: [Referee] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or

According to the West Riding County FA website the recommendations for dealing with assaults on match officials are :
Recommended punishments for a person found guilty of an assault upon a match official are follows and cover football at all levels of the game: (a) (i) Common Assault 182 days suspension plus £150 fine (ii) Common assault by way of spitting at or on a match official 1 year suspension plus £150 fine (b) Assault causing or attempting to cause bodily harm Sine die suspension with no review to be considered under a period of 5 years plus £250 fine (c) Assault causing serious bodily harm Permanent suspension (see Section 1.9)

I have several old county handbooks with similar provisions so I would imagine these are fairly standard throughout the country. However they are only recommendations but in even in that light the 35 day punishment sounds remarkably lenient.


burgesshillbee
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Dec 3, 2008, 9:37 PM

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Post #75 of 91 (3220 views)
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Re: [Referee] Ref assaulted. [In reply to] Can't Post or Reply Privately

 
All i can say about only 35 days given is that either the County FA have failed to read the report properly or that the referee did not indicate an assualt on himself just violent conduct by a player towards another player. Its hard to see how only 35 days can be given as all County FA'S should follow the FA Regs and suspend the offender immediatley if its indicated that a player has assulated a referee or another participant ie another player or manager etc

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